Jo kills our ship yet again...

[misshoneychurch88]

From mugglenet

"The most notable news of the night was the revelation of Dumbledore's sexuality. Jo says Dumbledore was gay and in love with Gellert Grindelwald. JK, in response to the audience's reaction, said "If I had known this would have made you so happy, I would have told you years ago."


we really can't win can we? I have to admit though, this did kinda make me smile in my own twisted little way

[esoterica1693]

I have always liked the ADMM ship, still do (I'll just imagine Albus was genuinely bi- ), but since the publication of DH it was clear Albus was so very close to coming out of the closet!

The description of him and GG together could be read either way, but the way his conversation w/ Harry at King's Cross went when GG came up, especially the bit where Harry said that GG perhaps wanted to spare AD's tomb from desecration, and Albus teared up-- that absolutely clinched it. Short of making the upside-down triangle in the Deathly Hallows symbol pink, Jo couldn't have done much more to make it clear...

What was more surprising to me than AD being gay was that usually-clueless Harry had figured it out, at least to the point of realizing that their friendship was profound enough that GG would die for Albus' dignity 40+ years later. Maybe he hadn't totally let himself imagine it as a romantic relationship, much less a sexual one (and who knows how physical the relationship ever was), but he clearly got that GG still cared A LOT about Albus, and that didn't freak him out, either b/c of who GG was, or b/c of the implications for AD. One of the many reasons I actually like DH Harry lots more than Harry in bks 1-6.

My more visceral reaction to Albus being outed is "D*mn. Yet another man I love turns out to be gay!"

Wonder if there's a PFLAG chapter at Hogwarts or the Ministry?

[pinnacle]

I agree with both of you guys.

He was so totally bi, Y/Y?

[pinnacle]

But I'm upset that Hagrid didn't marry Madam Maxime, and that Neville ended up with Hannah.

[littlemorgsi]

I've decided to just carry on in my own little fantasy world. You know, the one where Albus is completely and utterly in love with Min and vice-a-versa.

[esoterica1693]

Question....
Now that Jo's outed him....(and after his death--that's kind of a sneaky thing to do to a wizard who obviously didn't *want* to be out, or at least not totally so, when he was alive! I have no no no problem w/ him being gay, but a posthumous outing is tacky. <g>)

In *canon*, do you think that he was "out" to Minerva? Or not? (Not necessarily w/ the identity of his first/only? love, but w/ his orientation in general?) What are your reasons?

If you think she knew he was gay, does this add or alter any dimensions to scenes between them, or to their relationship at all? (Besides the obvious one that they probably weren't shagging each other under, or, on, the table!)

How do "You'll never be single-handed!" and "No one would have been happier that there was a little more love in the world" sound, if Albus is gay and Min knows it?

A virtual warren of plot bunnies is attacking me !!!

If Min knew, how did she find out? Did he tell her? If so, when and how?

If not, what was it that clued in her gaydar? Did she love him romantically before she learned? If so, how, or did, she ever get over him in that regard?

Here's another plot bunny...instead of their love being clandestine as we usually write it here...could they have actually encouraged ADMM rumors and flirted w/ each other a bit so she could be his "beard"?
- - - -
Even today it is dicey for gay men who are teachers to be "out" b/c of all the hysteria and prejudice and confusion of homosexuality and pedophilia. Surely it would have been the same for Albus for most or all of his life, even if Wizarding society is a bit ahead of Muggle. So even if his first love hadn't ended so tragically, when at Hogwarts he would have had to be extremely discreet in his personal life, even away from the school. And he was rather busy fighting Dark Wizards and being the behind the scenes leader of Wizarding England. So given all that, plus the sense of betrayal from his relationship w/ GG, and the trauma of having to duel and defeat him, I'd say Albus' romantic life while on faculty was close to nil.

Given all of that, I'd say that he and Minerva might have still had a very close, emotionally intimate, though non-sexual, relationship. And if people whispered about them....all the better from Albus' POV.

So by promoting ADMM we're really helping Albus out here. <g>

How Min felt about loving a man she could never be with romantically, though--oh, the angst!

[whitescaramouche]

Seems slightly manipulative of him to use her as a cover, but then again, cannon Albus was actually rather manipulative...

As for what Harry thought, I'd say most people really don't want to dwell too much on their teacher's sex lives, straight of otherwise...

[dempan]

Oops..I just posted one of this posts in det Book 7 discussion..sorry..

[dmf1984]

esoterica1693 said:

I have always liked the ADMM ship, still do (I'll just imagine Albus was genuinely bi- ), but since the publication of DH it was clear Albus was so very close to coming out of the closet!

My more visceral reaction to Albus being outed is "D*mn. Yet another man I love turns out to be gay!"

Wonder if there's a PFLAG chapter at Hogwarts or the Ministry?

ITA! Yet ANOTHER man I love turns out to be gay. I'm going with Albus as bi- because he has to love Minerva.

JKR is totally messing with us! I'll call BS publicity stunt as she prepares to write her HP encyclopedia.

PFLAG at Hogwarts is an awesome idea!

[piwakette]

Well, I for one am a bit angry and disappointed that JKR would be so manipulative and throw this into the mix after the last of her many successful and highly lucrative books. I feel a bit betrayed.

oh well... we'll always have fanfic and I personally will continue to think of ADMM together in some respect.

[beMMADfabulous]

She was serious? That's stupid! If she's not joking, forget JK. I'm serious, though I was just kidding when she sank our ship.

Forget her, seriously.

[Michelle]

Man the chick can not give us a break! She just had to open her yap. lol

[mcgonagallrocks]

my cousin told me last night and I was half asleep not really paying attnetion the moment Dumbledore and gay came out int he same sentence I was wide awake I do like the bi idea he was SO in love with Min JKR is just in denial about it I'm serious. ADMM will ALWAYS sail I'm never going to stop believeing he was in love with Min. They're too cute together. Was kinda sad last night I was going around trying to catch my lil cousins Dannie and Braden and I was muttering 'he can't he can't he can't it's just wrong.' and my cousin's husband Joe was like... 'he's a fictional character...' someone just about got slaped

[MinervaMcGonagall]

Laura Mallory is going to have a field day.

I can't believe it. I'm not homophobic and it doesn't bother me that he's gay but I still love ADMM. Oh well, screw JKR. I"m still mad at her for killing a certain redhead and then to deny my ship a few days later... Fan fiction is such a wonderful thing.

[mcgonagallrocks]

My cousin is still having a field day...

[ιady ταвz]

what the FUCK! omg! ummmm im gonna ignore it and go with JK being high and drunk! End of discussion lol

[angeldust]

I have to admit I had my speculations and I was supporting Albus/Grindelwald as a ship so in a sense it made me smile and power to JK most authors would not have admitted that about their main character when their books are already so often slated. But as for AD/MM - He is definately Bi-sexual no doubt about it *hangs up my DENILE banner with pride*

[admmityourlove]

Oh my God. First she sunk our ship, then she crucified it once we all tried to make it float again. I mean, ok I get the signs she left in DH really really really pointed to that conclusion, but still this hurt me a lot. I can empathize with Harry/Hermione shippers now, because JKR mocked them and totally abominated their ship too. *starts crying* Why am I so cursed that almost everyone I ship either ends up with someone else, dies, or turns out to be homosexual?!

I was going to come on here and update my story "The Deepest Mystery" in the romance section, but I' ve lost all my focus and creativity and ADMM pride thanks to JKR.

The idea that Albus could have been bi makes me feel a tiny bit better. His capacity to love was so great that he was attracted to people regardless of gender. Maybe...

For those of you who didn't see it, here's one of the many articles confirming Jo's words:
www6.comcast.net/news/articles/entertainment/2007/10/20/Books.Harry.Potter/

It's so hard. I seriously did not see this coming. I remember when I was on ff.net a couple of months ago and I read an Albus/ Gellert fic and thought it was ridiculous. Not only is it not ridiculous any more, it's also canon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not prejudiced against homosexuals. I even have two friends who are a lesbian couple and it seems perfectly acceptable to me. I just feel very demoralized in this case because I fell in love with this ship and now I feel like I'm being "cheated on" by it. I am too sad to continue this post any longer.

[ιady ταвz]

i absolutely, feel the same way admmityourlove, i too have nothing against, gays or lesbians, its just that ive felt my heart is broken after all my heartfelt faith that him and Minerva were meant to be. I feel like a part of me is lost, but the idea of him as bi is a tad bit comforting.

[furandfeathers]

I am so DONE. With canon Harry Potter. I didn't think it could get any worse after DH read like a NaNo first draft...but I've been proven wrong, yet again.



Although the plot bunnies are running wild right now... maybe he was experimental when he was younger..before he found Min. Not that I'm homophobic, several of my best friends are gay, but there is just no one else for Albus and certainly NOT Grindlewald!! *sends offended glares at JKR*

[primadie]

No way, man. That is hilarious that JK would just blurt that out at a book reading.

The news is kind of bittersweet, though. While I am glad that JK has created a fundamentally "good" character who just happens to have an alternative sexuality, I am still depressed because the ship has been sunk AGAIN.

I think it could work out if Minerva was a lesbian and then they could be gay together and help each other out with things, if that makes any sense at all...

[snowcat]

* peeks from the AD/MM submarine* She wants to keep us down, she has practically tied us to the bottom of the sea.
I think that, or I like to think that Albus is bi, but I had thougt of the Gellert/ Albus ship and understood that it was a treat.
But the clues, the hints and everything about Minerva and Albus are too strong to be ignored. I will keep on sailing.

[osusprinks]

My main problem with all this is that he was in love with Gellert and then just never loved again for 160 years? Doesn't that seem a little extreme? If he was really that burned, I doubt he would have believed in love as much as he seems to.

[esoterica1693]

Well, he could be bi-.

Or it could be one of the other scenarios that I've seen multiple times, especially in Min's generation ....man feels gay attraction in youth/young adulthood. Feels it's "wrong" b/c of what society says/what he's been taught (in Albus' case, add the *substantial* negative reinforcement of what happened to Ariana and who Gellert became!) so tries very hard to "choose" to be straight and totally deny what he'd felt earlier. Ends up w/ a woman. Very possibly definitely loves her in every way except sexually. Maybe, if he's closer to the middle of the sexuality spectrum he can even tell himself he feels that or close to it. They get together, become a committed couple, probably marry. And they truly *do* love each other deeply, even if the man is having to deny all sorts of other things he still feels for men, and perhaps exaggerate his sense of physical response to his wife.

Then sometime in the 1970s-1990s, as society becomes more accepting and talks more about homosexuality (did this perhaps happen earlier in the Wizarding world?) and there are more positive gay role models, the man finally begins to understand that his homosexuality is neither wrong nor a choice. Slowly the inner torture begins to morph into the possibility of self-acceptance. He comes out to his wife.

At that point perhaps they divorce (sometimes quite amicably) and the man lives the rest of his life consistent w/ his true orientation.

Or, perhaps they decide to stay together, for any variety of reasons--raising children together, the danger to his livelihood. Or perhaps even b/c they value the commitments they made and the love they've built, and perhaps w/ age and habit the man's libido is such that he figures the "gain" from freedom to act on his true orientation is less than the loss he would feel from leaving his wife. I know several couples like this. He's gay. She knows it. Maybe others do to. They're still together. For whatever reason, he is cool w/ not pursuing same-sex relationships at this stage.

Maybe they went through a stormy stage, maybe they separated for a measurable time while he umm, considered his options more fully, maybe they have an open or polyamorous relationship (though none of the couples I know has chosen this, AFAIK, but I know some do). But in the end they decide, for reasons that work for them, that they want to continue to be a committed couple. And so they are, and they seem happy and healthy, even if they've gone through a lot of torturous angst along the way.

I can easily see AD and MM in some permutation of this scenario. And it wouldn't be so much his using her as his having followed society's conventions and desperately tried to do what he thought he was supposed to, w/ a big layer of remorse/repentance for GG layered on top, only to figure out later that doesn't actually get rid of the orientation. And once, years later, he'd come to accept that, the two of them coming to terms w/ it in some way consistent w/ their intelligence, open-mindedness and genuinely deeply loving natures.

[prodigyviolin101]

My only reaction to this is truly stunned silence...why did she have to ruin our happy little fantasy?

[piwakette]

You know it's not that he's gay or that she has a gay character, it's the sneaky undernanded way that she's gone about this NOW! You want a gay character make him gay from the start don't sell millions and millions of books over the span of more than a decade and then when they're all sold tell people that -- oh SURPRISE -- one of the main characters is really gay.

I mean, these are children's books after all and parents have the right to make informed decisions and not be slapped in the face by the author after their kids are huge fans of the series.

Why not make him gay from the start? Why not leave the whole issue open to interpretation and not confirm anything one way or another like JKR has done on so many other issues? What is she trying to prove with this?

[dreaming tree]

Part of me just wants to ignore everything JKR has said on this book tour (Cho marries a muggle, Neville/Hannah+Leaky Cauldron etc), because most of these comments are WTF?! to me.

My problem with this is if she always had Dumbledore as being gay, why didn't she say it in that chat when someone asked about AD/MM She said that not everyone is in love with each other so why not say then that Dumbledore was gay.

I think it would have been better for her to out one of the students when she outed AD. But in my twisted mind AD will always be bi.

[childminerva]

I would just like to share something that amused me to no end...my sister emailed me the news article about this (I had already read it first thing this morning) and then included this note:

"how could she just throw away McGonagall like that???"

hehe...she's 11 and has only occasionally heard my views about ADMM. Too funny.

(and the angsty plot bunnies have been attacking me all day, fyi)

[esoterica1693]

Actually AD's being gay fits in w/ various character traits. And I don't mean the fabulous robes <g>. It would account *in part* for the constant championing of the outcast and scorned--most GLBT folks I know, once they have truly accepted their own sexuality as a given rather than a choice, quickly connect the dots between heterosexism/homophobia and racism and sexism as all being varieties of the same basic error and become strong advocates for racial justice and sexual equality and against oppression. But *sometimes* capable of great sympathy for the oppressors, b/c they once agreed w/ them and hated themselves.

Sometimes also when they "come out to themselves" later in life, they have to go back and re-work/re-do some of the emotional development issues that they should have resolved as teens and young adults but which got skewed or ignored b/c they had to devote so much energy to denying and hiding their sexuality (and all too often) loathing themselves. If Albus didn't fully accept his own sexuality until later in life (and I suspect the early debacle w/ GG ensured that he didn't), then it's probable he had to go back and reflect on and re-craft and re-learn various emotional things. Meaning that his own childhood and adolescence were closer to him in his memory and experience than his chronological age would indicate--b/c he'd had to revisit it and sort of re-do it, or at least reflect on it deeply, later. His comfort with and tolerance of teenagers, and the youthful joyful part of his personality might be somewhat related to this.

I bet muggle counselors who help GLBT folks work out the issues they face from being in the closet for years would love to have a pensieve available! <g>

[angeldust]

it's the sneaky undernanded way that she's gone about this NOW!

I can see why everyone is upset with the fact she's kept it so quiet while everyone has been busy building up ships but I can honestly see totally where she came from keeping it silent. She obviously wanted the books to sell - any human would and releaseing stories for children centered around magic is going to upset some folks anyway - releaseing books centered around magic where the main adult the hero looks up to who is gay is going to upset even more folks there are a lot of judgemental people out there who knew if the books were promoteing gay rights with a gay character would not allow their children to read it. Personally I'm backing JK up on this one - kind of rare i've been totally against her since Dh was released lol.

And i'm with childminerva my angst plot bunnies are tingleing.