A cry for realism

[AltraPalantir]

Okay, I know I haven't posted many fics, lately, and I don't really have a right to talk, but I'm going to rant anyway. I'm starting to get really frustrated by the lack of realism in fanfics. That probably sounds stupid, but I'm referring to the fact that it's been weeks since I've read a new story that hasn't frustrated me.

AD and MM were born around 1850 and 1920, respectively. This means that they are not going to have a twenty-first century attitude about sex. They are not going just be jumping in and out of bed, and they are not going to be cavalier about having a child out of wedlock. Dumbledore was born during the victorian era, when an English mother's advice to her daughter about sex was along the lines of "Close your eyes and think of England." Sex wasn't mentioned. Minerva's generation would have been slightly more open, but there was still a huge double standard. Her parents, however, are most likely contemporaries of Albus's, and therefore would be shocked, angry, confused and offended if they found out that Minerva was having unmarried sex, even if she is 70 years old.

Mostly, I'm ranting about the moronic teenagers (I'm a senior in high school, so I can complain about teenagers) who know nothing about the attitudes and thoughts of previous generations. Just because AD and MM aren't real, doesn't mean that they shouldn't act like real people would.

I know this doesn't apply to everybody here. I simply felt like getting this off of my chest, and this was the most available place.

Thanks for reading

Altra Palantir

[Tired of Complaints]

It seems that all you ever do around here is complain about our fics and yet you hardly ever contribute any of your own. As a high school senior, you are younger than the large majority of the writers here and as such I don't think you can lecture them about what they do and do not understand about history.

Yes, Albus was born during the Victorian era which is known for being incredibly prudish and yet also being a very debauched age of history. I hate to break it to you, but people have been having children without benefit of marriage for centuries. Yes, it wasn't widely acknowledged when they did and the young women were usually sent away to live with a spinster aunt or some other party until the child was born and then nobody talked about it ever again. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As for them just falling into bed if they did not become involved until the time of the books... Regardless of upbringing, do you really expect two mature consenting adults over the age of 50 who are in love to refrain from sex until marriage? That, my dear, is what's not realistic. Sure, they might have more old fashioned values but that doesn't mean they're going to frustrate themselves unnecessarily. You've written a fic where they go to bed with no declaration of feelings whatsoever, but just so that Minerva can't be kidnapped and used for evil purposes because she's a virgin. With that in mind, aren't you being a bit hypocritical here?

First of all, romantic fiction is usually only marginally realistic. Read a romance novel sometime. Second of all, I don't find that many fics all that difficult to believe. If you're that disgusted with fics recently maybe you should either write some more of your own or take a break from reading.

[not a moronic teenager]

First, in the Victorian society sex was not talked about but it happened almost more due to the repressed sexuality. It was talked about in artwork: the Impressionists were talking about sex. If you like Degas' ballerinas know that it is all about their sexuality. Men were having affairs, and children out of wedlock multiple times in their lives.

I'm also wondering what you want them to do in fics, first no I love yous and second no sex. Perhaps they are supposed to just stare at each other? I don't think they should have sex all the time, and they don't. Plus in many of the fics at this site Albus is at least 100, and Minerva is in her twenties; therefore they are consenting adults.

I, also, want to address some of your language. You have a right to not like certain or all fics, but you need to work on how you present that. Insulting members of this board and fanfic writers as "moranic teenagers" is tactless, and immature. Further if you will take the time to look at many profiles you will find that the majority of members are older than you. Making them not moranic teenagers, and I imagine many would be quite insulted by your language and bitter attitude; which will only work to damn your cause.

[TheEmeraldRose]

If you don't like the way a fic is going, just don't read it. It would save everyone a lot of anger and unnecessary flames.

-<3- LC

[teenage spokespeson]

No offense, but the teenage members of this group aren't old enough, or lack the experience, to write anything of what you're talking about, so where's your problem with the 'moronic' teenagers?

[angharad]

I think you are missing a very crucial point here: Albus & Minerva do not live in Muggle Europe, where women historically have had virtually no power, and which has been dominated spiritually and politically by the asceticism of the Roman Catholic Church and the various repressions of the Protestant churches for a very long time. They live in Wizarding Europe, which has always been relatively separate from Muggle Europe, but became even more so around the time Hogwarts was founded. They live in a society in which no organized religion has ever had power. They live in a society in which we know for certain that boys and girls have been taught equally for at least 1000 years.

Think about it. Wizards and witches have entirely different ways of dressing, they have different food, customs, money, etc. Women and men wield wands with equal power in the Wizarding world. Why on earth would a society that has developed so differently have Muggle attitudes regarding sex? Especially when those Muggle attitudes stem from some form of organized Christianity, or from the idea that women are less powerful than men? When Minerva was born, Muggle women weren't allowed to vote, but Witches held positions of power. In a society where women have power, would there be a double standard? I don't think so.

I am 40 years old. When I was 17, I had very narrow ideas about marriage and sex. The path my life has taken since then has broadened my views considerably. My mother is 70; life and a great deal of world travel has changed many of the very narrow views she once held as well. Not everyone who was born in a "repressive" era is repressed. In fact, many people in that situation go the opposite direction. That's what the Counterculture Movement of the 60s was about. I find it hard to believe that someone like Albus Dumbledore, who has had 150 years of life experience, and who (as evidenced by the books) is obviously tolerant and broad-minded, would be narrow-minded, tight-lipped, and prudish about sex. I also find it hard to believe that a powerful, fair-minded witch like Minerva McGonagall, who basically led a passive resistance movement at Hogwarts and nearly got herself killed while trying to defend a comrade, would shrink away from idea of unmarried sex with someone she loves.

One of the marvelous things about getting older is the opportunity to learn, grow, and examine your own ideas. I've also found that the older I get, the less I care about what "society" thinks of me. It's quite liberating.

Serving food for thought,

Angharad

[Nerweniel]

First of all, you don't have the right to label the teenagers on the board as "moronic". Perhaps that wasn't what you meant to do or whatever, but it felt like that, and it must have offended some people.

I'm not going to repeat what the other people said on this post, because they quite made their point clear. Albus and Minerva are not just your average granddad and grannie, for heaven's sake. Perhaps you have forgotten about the fact that the whole point of the Harry Potter series is, that it is situated in a *wizarding* world. Now of course I cannot know for sure, but just look at the Founders: two women, two men. In the Medieval Era, two of the most powerful wizards/witches in the world were women. Think about it. Would that ever have been possible in the muggle world? Being a history freak I can honestly answer "no" to that question. There were exceptions, of course, but in general, women were repressed, and basically by, yes, by the Roman Catholic church. And perhaps that is the crucial difference. That is why I don't believe something like a "true Victorian era", with girls running around in flowery dresses with "a magnificent smile" as their greatest "ability" (I'm not saying it was totally like that, but you gave me a feeling you supposed it was like that...). Come on. *That* is what's not realistic.
So I agree with what is stated before: Albus and Minerva are no muggles, they are wizards. Perhaps their ideas about sexuality are a little different from the contemporary ones, but it's like someone else stated: why would two grownup people who are in love wait with sex until after marriage?

Liz

[Rikki]

Okay, just as Nerweniel said, I think the others have made their point quite clear. What I would like to add is that if you don't like a story then just don't read it. Fortunately tastes are different. And I think since we're all grownups here we should act this way. Tolerance should be part of that.

If you want to have your ideas respected that please respect ours, even if they're not to your liking.

Hugs, Rikki

[max]

So,

now I want to add my two pence too, being well aware that I'm once again going to become the "eternal ranting Max" ...

AltraPalantir said:

Okay, I know I haven't posted many fics, lately, and I don't really have a right to talk, but I'm going to rant anyway. I'm starting to get really frustrated by the lack of realism in fanfics. That probably sounds stupid, but I'm referring to the fact that it's been weeks since I've read a new story that hasn't frustrated me.

First: In the contrast to some other people I don't believe one needs to post many fics before he is allowed to do some criticism.

If such a rule would apply, the universities would have to close their entire literature departments and the newspaper could cancel their review pages because the journalists writing there aren't doing any movies, books and opera themselves. They're only critics - and sometimes damn good one with a lot of knowledge about the subject. So not writing oneself doesn't mean one wouldn't be able to have an opinion.

AD and MM were born around 1850 and 1920, respectively. This means that they are not going to have a twenty-first century attitude about sex. They are not going just be jumping in and out of bed, and they are not going to be cavalier about having a child out of wedlock. Dumbledore was born during the victorian era, when an English mother's advice to her daughter about sex was along the lines of "Close your eyes and think of England." Sex wasn't mentioned. Minerva's generation would have been slightly more open, but there was still a huge double standard. Her parents, however, are most likely contemporaries of Albus's, and therefore would be shocked, angry, confused and offended if they found out that Minerva was having unmarried sex, even if she is 70 years old.

No. Here I must disagree strongly. I think Angharad is right: We're not talking about average people here, but about wizards who live in a community pretty far away from ours. And it's obviously one in which women were never treated so much as "minors" as our community did in the past. This JKR made pretty clear. Take for example: At least half of the portraits in Albus' office are paintings of women. And with the headmaster of Hogwarts being not only a simple teacher, but an important person in the political life of the magical society, the amount of women in this position shows clearly that women in the magical world were never supposed to act as minor as the Victorian Muggle women.

Mostly, I'm ranting about the moronic teenagers (I'm a senior in high school, so I can complain about teenagers) who know nothing about the attitudes and thoughts of previous generations. Just because AD and MM aren't real, doesn't mean that they shouldn't act like real people would.

Well, I'm with you here (except of calling some of the writers here "moronic teenagers". That goes too far), but I'm afraid we come nevertheless to extremely opposite conclusions.
What drives me up the wall are stories in which we get a "virginal" Albus. My experience in life (and being 44 years old, I've got a little experience, methinks) tells me that a strong, powerful and charming man (and that's the way JKR shows us Albus Dumbledore) who's used to deal with strong women and obviously likes them (half of the Hogwarts staff is female - and the way JKR shows the ladies they don't look to me like shy bunnies in awe of the great headmaster) is in his private life a shy oddball who buries himself in books (if he'd be a bookworm, he certainly wouldn't complain about always getting books for Christmas!) and dwells in dreams about his deputy for xx years.

The fact that he's 150 years old and with that born in a time where people were perhaps more restricted about sex as we are today, doesn't mean he's a prude Victorian who believes in something like "No sex before the marriage".

I actually don't have to go far for meeting two men who show that being born in a time with more restrictions doesn't mean one has to become a prude.

No.1 is my father. He's 86 years old and he was a Lutheran preacher for the biggest part of his life. Nevertheless two dates out of his life show pretty clearly how he thought about certain restrictions: He married my mother on December 29, 1956 - and on August 27, 1957 my brother was born. And he wasn't too early, just on the contrary - he was 14 days over the time what means: He was conceived before my parents were married.

They never denied it. The story how my mother almost fell from the ladder from supressed laughter (because she already knew that she was pregnant) a few days before her wedding by hanging up the curtains in the new house because her father and her future mother-in-law tried to tell her "tactfully" how much they hoped she would soon give them a grandchild is one of the family antics rather often told.

And although my father is a preacher my upbringing certainly wasn't "prudish". My parents weren't shocked as I wanted to have the pill as I became 16 (hi - I'm an European and born in 1960! In my generation this was absolutely normal!) and as my father once stormed in my brother's room with his dirty shoes for a rant about cleaning them, he was embarassed, but certainly not "shocked" about finding my brother and his girlfriend in bed and just having fun (my brother was around 18 this time).

As my brother a few years later decided to get a flat together with his girlfriend, my parents didn't have a problem with that. But they weren't too happy as I announced a few years later that I would marry a man I hadn't lived with before. They both found that I should try living with him before.

Today my parents don't have a problem with their 19 year old gradson coming for a visit and having his girlfriend with him. They get the guest room - and what they do there, is their business. My parents certainly don't interfere.

The other example: The man I live with. He's born 1932 as a Roman Catholic Irish. He grew up in England, was a pupil in Catholic schools and even supposed to become a priest, so his upbringing was certainly very restricted. It didn't prevent him from fathering a child out of wedlock (he refused to marry the boy's mother, but became a single and very devoted father), having a few affairs and living now again with a woman without being married to her (and because I'm not keen on marrying again either, it works wonderfully). He's a broad minded man, he is at ease with himself and his sexuality and he doesn't have a problem to speak his mind when it comes to matters of sexuality. And sometimes, in discussing with my nephew or with his sons and friends, he maintains laughing, that he obviously is liberaler as the kids - and he definitely is what comes probably from being experienced and old enough to know a few things and to be above stupid people's opinion.

And for coming back to our subject at least: Albus Dumbledore is shown to us as someone who doesn't cares a f.... ine damn about people's opinion about him (remember the scene in Hagrid's Hut where he tells about his brother and his goats? He obviously isn't in the last embarassed by the story). He's self-confident, he is sensual (his liking of sweets and extravagant clothing, his dislike of cold feet, shown in the famous mirror scene), he's in a way "vain" (his clothing, his beard and hair) as a man, he loves fun, he's tolerant - and that all makes for a man who certainly enjoys being with women too.

Max
"My cry for realism is: Don't make Dumbledore a fluffy grandfather who behaves like a shy 17 year old. He's a man - a strong man!"

[max]

Sorry, Rikki,

that's actually not directed only at you, but meant generally:

Rikki said:

What I would like to add is that if you don't like a story then just don't read it.

For noticing that I don't like a story I unfortunately have to read it - perhaps not entirely, but I actually tend to give stories a chance. Therefore I mostly read a good part of it before I say: "That's lousy!"

I mostly refrain from reviewing then - but actually I only do so because I've learned that a lot of fan fiction writers can't deal with criticism - even when given constructive. And ... as arrogant as it may sound: I don't want to waste my time with writing a critical, constructive review when I know that the author isn't up to taking critic, but only wants praise.

I think the "If you don't like it, don't read it" (or more exactly: "Don't dare to tell that you don't like it!") attitude is - in my humble opinion - absolutely wrong. No story and no book - and I include in this even the three dozen books I've published until now - is above criticism. And none of us fan fictions writers is a genius in the format of Shakespeare or Goethe and with that above the critic of "normal" readers.

Critic is what gives us a chance to become better writers. Someone who doesn't want critic is someone I can't take serious as a writer. Just so simple.

And following that: I dream of a board where honest critic would really become approved of. This "I praise yours for getting my stories praised" attitude which spreads through fandoms like a pestilence is one of the reasons why 80 % of all fan fictions one gets to read are crap and a waste of time.

Max
who can't help taking writing seriously

[delenndumbledore]

Mostly, I'm ranting about the moronic teenagers (I'm a senior in high school, so I can complain about teenagers) who know nothing about the attitudes and thoughts of previous generations.

I don't want to repeat the (right) arguments above. You wrote you are a senior in high school...that means how old are you? 19, 20 oder 21? Sorry I assume this age...I'm from Germany and I don't exactly know how old high school pupils are.

Nevertheless is it insulting to call some of the writers "moronic teenagers". By the way....do you know the exact age of most of the members here? I am 44 years old....far away from being a teenager...moronic or not.

It's a touch of arrogance you have shown us and that's not a behaviour of an adult woman. An adult woman overlooks the mistakes of the youth sometimes. Or better they help the youth to understand. Don't show us your own knowledge...share your knowledge with the younger one.

Prejudices aren't helpful wether now nor in the past. Read the stories on another way...with more easiness and less strictness.

Delenn Dumbledore

[Nerweniel]

I just wanted to point out that, indeed, Max, in a way you are right. Honest criticism is good and I would never ever be angry at someone for saying something bad about my stories because I do know that they can do with some improvement. I hope that no-one feels forced to praise a story they don't even like over here.
It's just that this is not really about the right to give criiticism- this is about someone calling people she does not even know "moronic teenagers". I am a teenager (*shiver* but I don't really feel moronic, I must say... ;D.

Love,

Liz

[max]

Liz Darling,

Nerweniel said:

It's just that this is not really about the right to give criiticism- this is about someone calling people she does not even know "moronic teenagers". I am a teenager (*shiver* but I don't really feel moronic, I must say... ;D.

You aren't.

If all teenagers were like you, I could become a fan of teenagers.

And I think we absolutely agree: The fact that one finds a story lousy, doesn't give one a right to call the writer "moronic" (with one exception: The writers who write rape stories with the victim falling in love with the rapist I find moronic and I'll always say so).

Yours
Max

[Nerweniel]

Oh goodness, well you *do* have a point here... those stories are not just ridiculous and unrealistic- they're slightly scary as well .
Thanks for the compliment, by the way. Feel less "moronic" already .

Love,

Liz
who's not going to feel slightly offended by anything anymore, hehe.

[MsPresident]

I just wanted to put my input in.

I think this is an interesting conversation and we may never know the answer because the books are from Harry's point of view.While I probably wouldn't write "those" kinds of stories, it's another great way everyone's differences come out.

Usually, in conversations (or civilized disagreements) name- calling is left to 5 year olds. I myself am a teenager, and I don't appreciate being called moronic by a senior in high school or a 13 year old. If someone were to call me moronic, I'd hope it would be from someone with more experience in life. I'm sure your point could have been articulated better without the " moronic teenager" comment. Next time you have something to say, I think everyone, at least I would, appreciate if you didn't blatently insult the writers of these stories

The wizarding world is different in almost everything else, so why not this? Part of the frame of mind of no sex before marriage was based on the Catholic church, (I'm sure others also, but that is the one I'm most familiar with) and I don't believe that's the church is present in the Harry Potter books.

I hope I didn't sound too moronic for anyone. Sorry if I did.

Alexis

[Dewey]

I'm in agreement with everyone else, Albus and Minerva weren't brought up in the muggle world, but the wizarding world. Their outlook on sex would be completely different than that of a muggle born in the same era as either. As for the bit about it being mostly "moronic teenagers", most of the members here aren't teenagers. I myself being a teenager, I don't feel moronic. If you're a senior in highschool, wouldn't you basically be calling yourself a moronic teenager?

Being most likely the youngest member of this board, I do fill a bit overwhelmed and stupid at times, but I'm entitled to because I lack the life experience that most everyone here has. I wouldn't mind so much if I were to be called moronic from an elder with much more life experience than I; they've seen things and heard things and done things, and even been through things that most of us here couldn't begin to imagine. My step great-grandfather being a prime example: He's in his mid-nineties but could remember almost anything that has happened like he has a pensive to relook his thoughts through. He has trouble with mixing up names at times, but it's understandable seeing he's probably met so many different people in his lifetime. My point, he can remember events from his childhood and what the world was like then, and I wouldn't be in the least bit insulted if he found me moronic, quite the contrary I would feel blessed that he would give me criticism of any kind. Criticism is what molds us, and people understand that. What you have however done is given criticism without telling us exactly what we are doing.

Yes, it's probably quite clear to most what is wrong, but I fail to see the point, isn't that why we're here? To learn to become a better author and have fun doing what we love? Criticism is what helps us do that; if you don't like something you are reading, either stop reading or do everyone a favor and try to find what the author is doing wrong and tell them. Albus and Minerva are most likely in no way prudes, but isn't that the point of fanfiction? To question the author because you never know what is coming and to look at every possible means in which something may come to be?

Just my two cents,
Kathy.

[ginger newts]

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse by adding my opinion to the thread, but I feel the need to say a few things.

First, I'm in agreement with most here concerning Albus and Minerva's views on sex. Albus is portrayed as an eccentric tollerant man who is obviously a bit of a free thinker. He hires teachers that others in their society does not approve of, he's accepting of Muggles and their ways, and he casually takes on the Minister of Magic several times in the fifth book because he disagrees with him the greatest example being when he flees from capture. A man like Albus who seems to enjoy life and love to be around people certainly wouldn't have prudish attitudes toward sex. And I have to agree with Max on the point that he would not have abstained for many years, though I don't think that he would have been bed hoping with dozens of women either. As for Minerva, she's a very strong confident woman in a position of some authority. She knows what she wants and what she believes in and she'll do anything to protect those values. She also, in her own way, defies the Ministry all throughout book five and she always supports Albus no matter what he may be doing. I don't believe that she would be fettered by ancient views on sexuality either. If she loved a man and she wanted to be with him then I believe she would be, marriage or no marriage. Does that mean some fics where they go to bed after a first date are a bit far fetched? Perhaps. But they wouldn't sit around like 15 year olds and hold themselves back from passion either.

Second, I agree with what some have said regarding criticism. If you can't stand for some people to not like your stories then you shouldn't post them. However, there is a right and a wrong way to give criticism. This is what gets so many people upset and I've done it here and I still apologize to the author that I offended. It's all in the way you deliver the criticism. Polite and thoughtfully worded critiques on a specific element of a story should be well received because it shows that someone put enough thought into your story to find it worth their time to be helpful. On the other hand, just rudely saying you're dumb or you're a terrible writer is not helpful and it hurts feelings. I have also noticed a tendency for people to just widely enjoy everything and be overly full of praise and that can be a bit annoying. I for one don't review a story if I don't like it and I will stop reading after a chapter or two if I don't like the direction something is going in. For me, two things I can't stand are sending Albus and Minerva to school together because it just didn't happen that way and having Minerva date or be in love with Tom Riddle. Christy knows how much that bothers me and I have unfortunately flamed people for it because I find it an insult to Minerva to think that she would have been taken in by his charm like other people were. Not to mention the fact that he was at least two years younger than she was based on the supposed "official" time line. She may have been even older than that. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. Critical reviews should always be offere in a polite manner and if you really think that what you have to say could be bothersome then send the author a private message or an email, this is a mistake I made once and so I feel I can speak from experience and recommend to others that they be more tactful and think about the consequences before publically offering criticism that may upset an author.

Alright, I think I've rambled enough and everyone has already made excellent points. I do hope in future you will think a bit harder before you label people as "moronic" as that seems to have really struck a cord here. We don't seem to have many teenage members, but some of the ones we do have are younger than you are and behave more maturely. Again I have to agree with Max, if all teenagers were like Liz and Lauren I would like them much more myself.

And, Delenn, a senior in high school in America would be 17 or 18, you gave her too much credit as far as age goes.

[Rikki]

Max said:

Sorry, Rikki,

that's actually not directed only at you, but meant generally:

Hey Max,

actually I've read your previous post with interest - I mean all that stuff about your dad was really interesting.

And I even agree with you in terms of criticism. I just don't get why people have to start rambling about such a thing as different tastes. My "if you don't like it don't read it" statement was probably not qualified to express what I thought. If I don't like a story I usually skip it after reading either the summary or the first chapter. What I meant was that there are different tastes. I don't like every story I read - maybe because of the author's style, maybe because of the content... And if I don't like a story because of the content I think that's my problem then. Of course I can tell the author - but without insulting anyone just because he or she is of a different opinion. There's still a freedom of speech after all. I just don't get why someone has to start rambling about stories being unrealistic or not liking stories - writing an adequate -meaning polite - review would have been sufficient in my opinion.

It's okay that you take writing seriously but we're talking about fanfiction here. It's neither Shakespeare nor Goethe as you already pointed out, but people who just want to write about stuff they like. For me writing fanfiction is a hobby, something I do to relax...

Hugs, Rikki

[angeldust]

I myself as proabaly one of the youngest members of this proboard at age 15 am extreamly racked of at being labeled as a moronic teen!

I personally don't believe i'm moronic and be labled enough with out having to recieve it over the net!

Personally i think you really should have kept these thoughts to your self as i'm sure im not the only one who was affended.

[Toe Expert]

wow !

This forum is full of people from all age groups! Pardon, women and girls of almost all age groups . . .

15?!

wow


. . .

[Toe Expert]

I feel the need to agree and say that constructive criticism is something that all of us need no matter what we write. I am glad that some of the authors in this forum spend time and efforts to review and evaluate other fics and give valuable feedback to the authors. I am right now in the process of writing my first AD/MM fic (!) and I really don't feel like this would be the perfect fic, but I really hope to receive feedback that is not empty of content (although I would not refuse some expressions of content and happiness ).

But back to the point: the so called "cry for realism" is something that we cannot understand. If the goal of fanfiction were to stick closely to the canon, then what is the point of writing fics?!

I agree that we should respect the authors wishes and descriptions (JKR after all is the one who invented them), I think that the mere fact that this is fanfiction, not a continuation of the books, is what gives us the opportunity to play around with the characters. And besides, there are so many things that we don't know about Albus and Minerva that we are bound to make assumptions about them. Some are better than other but that does not matter that much. Only JKR can say what Albus and Minerva are like and our speculations are only what they are: speculations!

And for all the accusations that I read here: moron teenagers and so on . . . Would you please read the line on top of this webpage: " Remember to be courteous and respectful. Inappropriate posts will not be tolerated. We're all here to have fun. "

Thank you for reading!

Lena

[Stoneygem]

Hello there,

I'd like to put in my two cents as well. And one of the things i do agree to is Altra's asking for a little more realism.
I agree with most commenters that calling people "moronic teenagers" is certainly not the best course of action and was rather unnecessary. Nevertheless, I find it slightly odd that the first comments on Altra's complaint - reacting quite harshly and offended no less - posted their reaction anonymously. Please, don't complain about somebody, if you don't have the courage to do it under your name.

However, i do understand your frustration, Altra. I have been through that phase already and it still remains kind of a factor in my fanfic viewing. Even though our couple is not from a realistic world, it is my hope to read them written in a realistic way as persons. Some of the best stories in our fandom manage exactly that. That lately those stories have become rare, I recognised as well. On the other hand, it could be that my perception of a realistic story has changed. maybe that is the same for you.

I also agree with Max that to know that a story is lousy, you usually have to read it first, so this "if you don't like it - don't read it" attitude doesn't exactly apply. If people complain about the story being AD/MM, then I'd use that attitude, but not for a general opinion of "I like AD/MM, but this story is not good." This doesn't help.
And Max is even more right, when she says that writing a thoughtful and constructive review on a bad story is a waste of time, if the author of said story feels offended by it and yells back at the reviewer. That isn't helpful either.

I see it with my students - I let them tell me what they don't like about my teaching and all I ever get is a 'this is wrong, that is wrong" and so on. They never think 'should we do something about ourselves as well?' That angers me, I must admit - and since I find it in the fanfic world quite often as well, it frustrates me too.

And to come back to the realism-part. It is a point where I am very touchy about. Since I am a historian, I'd like to read facts correctly. And for my own writings (which are not necessarily good - I'm far from claiming that) i invest a lot of time into the research. Thus, I actually expect other people to do so as well.

Finally, coming to the apparently very sore point of Albus' and Minerva's sexuality. I find it a slightly odd development that about a year ago there were absolutely no lemons on AD/MM (well, maybe a handful), but then the number exploded and suddenly people were at each other's throats all the time. I really wonder, why that is.

As it is, I think this board states on its top lines that all people should behave respectful on this board. i think, nobody should forget that. Not when staging a complaint - for which everybody has a right - and not when reacting to that complaint. It becomes the community a lot better.

Thank you.

Stepping off the soap box now.
Sue

[phoenix914]

Actually...it bothers me more when characters ARE prudish...hehe...

*feeling like a perv, now*

~Kristen

[QuillofMinerva]

Constructive reviews are always good to have, they can give the writer something to go and improve on.

I write my stories to let off steam, yes they may not be everyones cup of tea but i enjoy writing them.

It was a wee bit harsh to brand teenagers as moronic and it was bound to cause a discussion such as this.

Fan fiction gives us the freedom to write what we would like to see happen. I like to read a good bit of fluff, angst, romance and a lemon, it tends to improve my mood lol

[Rikki]

QuillofMinerva, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Hugs, Rikki

[TheEmeraldRose]

I tend to be a pretty non-confrontational person, so I really hesistated in posting this.

Being only fifteen, I deal with teenagers firsthand. They're my peers, and I come in contact with them every single day. Let me also say how surprised I was to find that a good number of people on this board are, in fact, teenagers. It scares me to think many of you are the same age as some of the idiots I come in contact with daily. So, to call ANY of you "moronic" would be a serious mistake.

AltraPalantir, I know you meant well when you posted, but please, get to know some of these "Moronic Teenagers" before you label them.

-<3- LC

[ginger newts]

QuillofMinerva said:

I write my stories to let off steam, yes they may not be everyones cup of tea but i enjoy writing them.

Fan fiction gives us the freedom to write what we would like to see happen. I like to read a good bit of fluff, angst, romance and a lemon, it tends to improve my mood lol

That's very well said. I think we need to remember that all of this is just for fun. It's a nice passtime, a way to unwind at the end of the day and a way to vent creative urges. JKR set up a lovely little world and we've chosen characters that we know just enough about to speculate and decide for ourselves how they might act in various situations. There are limits, yes, but we need to keep in mind that we all view these characters just a little bit differently and so we're not always going to please every reader with every story. I can sometimes even tell you people who won't like a certain story that I wrote just based on the content. And as long as you declare it AU there's nothing wrong with taking a bit more license.

Of course you should put thought into it and try to make it believable, that's what makes it a good story. As the fanon grows there will inevitably be more bad stories mixed in with the good because the overall number of stories is larger. Speaking as a new writer, it can be difficult to think up a plot that hasn't been done to death already. Also, when I first started reading I noticed an established fanon convention about certain matters. There are things that have almost come to be seen as AD/MM fact and the line between fanon and canon I believe can be easy to blur if you let yourself get too carried away. For example, things like the fact that the relationship is a secret, or that Minerva was an Auror and took over DADA in 1956, things that we don't know for sure but that most people seem to pretty much accept as the way it is with them. Often when I write I find myself falling back on these assumptions and conventions and usually when I do that, I realize that I'm writing a pretty sh*tty piece of fiction and I don't like it.

It may be that some authors are getting lazy because the fanon is so established at this point and I think that is a problem, I for one try very hard not to write anything if it's been done before. I'm sure I don't always succeed and I'm the first to tell you I've written some really ugly fiction, but it does get easier with practice. If your story shows that you have thought about the characters and thought about the situation then it's worthy of writing. Again, it all comes down to the fact that we're all amateurs writing in our spare time for our own amusement. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take it a bit seriously, but it shouldn't be your whole world and we should all definitely respect each other. You make yourself quite vulnerable when you post a story and you should be able to cope with some people not liking it, but when you don't like a story you should be polite about it because it's very easy to hurt someone's feelings.

[griseldalafey]

After a lot of pondering... here are my two cents:

Ginger Newts, I agree with what you've said above here.
This is fanfiction. That means we use characters writen by another author and use them in our own stories.
The reason why can be very different.
I like Albus and I like Minerva and I think they make a wonderful couple together. Since this hasn't happened in the books so far (at least not explicetly) I decided to write it myself. Apart form that, all the books are writen from Harry's point of view and I like to explore JKR's world from a different POV.

The whole point of fanfiction to me is that I put already excisting fictional characters in a story-line of my own. My stories are a result of my wonderings: what would happen if... What would happen if Albus and Minerva started a relationship? What would happen if Minerva decided to leave Hogwarts?

How far are you allowed to go? Can you write everything you want? I think so. (with a few extreme exeptions) Simply because I think it's hypocritical to think that I can write an Alastor/Poppy romance, even though there's no evidence in the books, but that it's not alright for someone else to write a dark Minerva fic, because there is no evidence in the books.

That doesn't mean I like everything that is written. But that doesn't bother me either. I don't have to like it. I also don't like every book that has even been published. Most of the time it doesn't say anything about the story's content or the author's writing abillities, it says something about me and about my personal preferences.

Another thing is constructive critism.
Again, this is fanfiction. Most of us are not professional writers, I believe many don't intent to become one and I also believe that everyone is doing this for fun. (so I agree with Clayre here)

Speaking for myself, I tend to make Albus and Minerva (and other characters I use) act in the way I should have act in that situation. I guess this is why my characters are sometimes OC and why I'm not a professional writer.

A good writer can put distance between themselves and the characters they write. They don't have to be perfect, they can have flaws or make mistakes, they don't have to act in a way the author would act herself, simply because the author and the main characters are not the same.

Even though I'm working on it, I often feel that the characters I write are still too much of a reflection of me (or rather, who I want to be) or, to put it the other way around, I identify myself too much with the character I write.

Going from this, is it possible that this one of the reasons why some people tend to react touchy when they receive ciritism for their works? Because they take it too personally?

[Catwoman99]

Well, this was quite an interesting post to stumble upon. I won't bore all of you by repeating what the others said, but I agree with Angharad, Liz, Max, etc.

I'm sorry that you are frustrated by many of the fics you are reading because of their "lack of realism." I, for starters, just can't seem to link up the word realism and Harry Potter. I know that's not quite what you meant, but I associate realism with people and situations that can actually happen. If I'm reading a book of fantasy or fics based on books of fantasy, realism is the farthest thing from my mind.

I may not be understanding this correctly, but perhaps you feel that because Albus and Minerva are not being portrayed as prudish towards sex and children out of wedlock, that they are being written out of character? If that is the case then, based on what I've read in the books, they don't strike me as being prudish. What you call realism and what I call realism, as it pertains to this argument, I suppose is not really relevant and I won't argue semantics.

I respect your opinion, Altra, though based on the reactions of others, you might have worded it differently so as not to offend. Though I do understand that when ranting we often forget how others will view our opinions and we don't take the time to check ourselves. I personally do not think this board is the right place for a rant. I have no problems with stating your opinion, but please do so in a mature and calmly worded manner. If you need to rant, then I recommend using livejournal, that's where I usually do it.

Well, that's my two sickles.

- April :-)

[Karlynne]

I've only been registered on the board for a day but I can't not speak my mind. I read the original complaint and I chose not to focus on 'moronic' but on 'teenager'. In this way I am not insulted but complimented as my teen years are a distant memory. I usually overlook the insults and focus on the topic.

I have been flamed and roasted over a spit about some of my stories and I must say the content of the criticism reflects the critic not the writer.

I read every AD/MM story I find. Sure, I have to force myself throught some but I believe there are gems in nearly every story (not to mention an incredible source of plot bunnies) and although I am uncomfortable with stories that portray Albus falling in love with Minerva while a student, (and it nearly kills me to read they act on their feelings) reading a story in its entirety does not mean I support the views of the writer. There are published books out there that I heartily disagree with.

Personally, I find it hard to picture Albus with an underaged companion because I do see him as having standards different to those but I've read many stories that disagree with me.

I take the stance that everyone is entitled to write what they like. If enough people write that they hate AD/MM it doesn't make me stop but if they write canon states blah blah then I will correct myself if I am trying to stay true to canon. I believe in criticizing the style of writing and pointing out mistakes but allow creative licensing to plots and characters so the writer may express themselves.

I admit I grew up a total prude. No sex before marriage (thank god I married at 19) and definitely no sex outside of marriage but I don't insist that everyone share my viewpoint and personally I like writing lemons where Albus and Minerva aren't married and engaged in sex. It's my form of rebellion and a healthy outlet.

Karlynne