Women in Harry Potter

[monsie]

minniequill said:

I kind of go by the motto 'men and women are the same and yet different' because there are always jobs which men are better suited to, and those which women are better suited to. There's no getting around that.

However, I'm well aware that this isn't really the 'norm' if you like. I've been quite spoilt growing up with that because work is simply not that way. Women generally still have to work twice as hard to receive the same position. Lord knows, my mother has had to.

And not just twice as hard, but for less pay. It's not as bad now as it used to be (here anyway. In some professions women actually exceed men, but that is rare!) but it is still disgraceful. I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries though. I would hope that it would be different, but I doubt it.

Regarding your first statement, I guess if I don't let myself get angry about the situation, I do believe that too.

[misshoneychurch88]

I will throw out there though that things are getting a bit better. Women are outnumbering men in applying to college and th majority of high school valevictorians are now women. I actually got interviewed for a book about the growing number of young women takng a leading position in education

[monsie]

They are, but if you think about it, is the change taking place in lower socio-economic groups of women? So far, it appears to be, mainly, middle-class women. And, to a degree, upper class women too. But, I imagine people would be less likely to think of them because of their all ready high salaries. However they are still earning less than their male counterparts. That is, of course, when they are given the opportunity to become CEO's of big companies or other similar high placed positions.


edit: I hope that made sense, I am sick and sleep deprived at the moment.

[MinervaMcGonagall]

I apologize but this is going to be a long post. While I love the Harry Potter books, I do believe they are a bit sexist.

Hermione
Hermione is greatly underappreciated. In the 7th book, she does most of the planning, packing, and gathering of food. Throughout the books, I find that Harry and Ron are horrible friends to her (They refused to speak to her after the Firebolt incident, get mad when she disagrees etc). She is often portrayed as a nag and although she does most of the grunt work, the boys get most of the glory.
Minerva
While strong, she immediately backs down when Dumbledore tells her something. It gets old . Also, JKR did not make her headmistress because she was too old. Yet, Albus was 150. Its as if she is saying, "It's ok for an old man to be headmistress but no older woman can be headmistress"
Ginny
She is portrayed as a typical fan girl who needs the guys to come and rescue her (Chamber of Secrets). In book 7, I noticed she is the one helping taking care of George, typically a woman's job.
Mrs. Weasley
Portrayed as the stereotypical caring mother. She does not work outside the home even though they could use the money.
Umbridge
While evil, follows Fudge blindly.
Bellatrix
Insane and follows Voldemort blindly. She is powerful though.

The other girls are portrayed as giggling, gossips. Yes, girls do play coed quidditch but are never the stars it seems. Yes, there are a few female death eaters but there a few female serial killers as well. Overall, I hate the way she portrays Hermione and Minerva especially. I think she could improve on that.

[misshoneychurch88]

Overall, I hate the way she portrays Hermione

well it's a bit hard fro me to fault her about Hermione, since she has said that Hermione was based upon herself. Of course she has faults, who doesn't, and I think Jo did a good job showing that everyone, even those we thought of as heros, have faults. Hermiones is that shes a bit of an annoying know it all, but because of that she is also incredibaly valuable. If anything, I think Ron may be the most stereotypical "Female" character in the trio. He can be rather bitchy and tempermental and has some pretty crazy mood shifts. If her were a girl everyone would have just shouted PMS!

As for Minerva/Bellatrix/Unbridge I posted a bit a while ago about powerful men with very powerful women right be hind them, and while I know I would love to see more women in front, it is very common to have the woman there who tends to obey orders. If we really want to go into it Condoleezza Rice once accidenatally Calld GWB her husband, which is rather hilarious

[esoterica1693]

Your mention of Condi and GWB brought this to mind, as Condi has been described as being GWB's 'work wife'....even if, as Jo says, they are not romantically involved, Albus and Minerva are, at the very *least*, "work spouses," in the modern, 1980s onwards meaning of that term, not the older 1930s version....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_spouse
men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_403&pageNum=1
www.careerjournal.com/columnists/cubicleculture/20030926-cubicle.html

[pinnacle]

esoterica1693 said:

Your mention of Condi and GWB brought this to mind, as Condi has been described as being GWB's 'work wife'....even if, as Jo says, they are not romantically involved, Albus and Minerva are, at the very *least*, "work spouses," in the modern, 1980s onwards meaning of that term, not the older 1930s version....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_spouse
men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_403&pageNum=1
www.careerjournal.com/columnists/cubicleculture/20030926-cubicle.html

I didn't know any specific term existed for that type of relationship, that's so interesting. Thanks for sharing!

By the way, I particularly like the title of an article it links to: "Prexy Sks Wrk Wf." ;D

[misshoneychurch88]

ahh esoterica1693 I've been trying to find the articles about this for a while, thanks. It's a very common thing, and I find it facinating. I know there are more articles out there, but thanks for those ones.

[StormAngel]

I must say, Harry Potter series is rather sexist. This is so, as notice how most of the female characters are usually protrayed as weak or have sudden changes of heart halfway through the series. It seems like JKR decided halfway that she did not want to be sexist no longer and makes the female characters more powerful.

For instance, Molly Wealsey was (to me), a rather annoying character who keeps mothering the kids. Then halfway through the last book, she becomes protective, and blasted the hell out of Voldy or the other guy ( I can't remember exactly).

In the series, it seems to hold the implication that the women are the generally weaker sex, following the men with a few exceptions. Yet, note that people like Bellatrix; though powerful in her own right, still adhere's to Voldemort's wishes. Tonks, without Lupin by her side, is rather weak and unable to do anything. Ginny throughout the series, plays this girl who has this pathetic crush on Harry. Notice during the final battle; the women has a more supportive and smaller role compared to the men.

Hell, women in real life has to work twice as hard to get a position in a generally men dominated workplace.

[monsie]

misshoneychurch88 said:

Condoleezza Rice once accidenatally Calld GWB her husband, which is rather hilarious

'Hilarious' might be one way to describe it. 'Scary' would be another.

The other girls are portrayed as giggling, gossips. Yes, girls do play coed quidditch but are never the stars it seems. Yes, there are a few female death eaters but there a few female serial killers as well. Overall, I hate the way she portrays Hermione and Minerva especially. I think she could improve on that.

I loved your examples of Quidditch players and death eaters. Perfect examples that, yet again, women are not the key players. Again, I find myself wondering why?

May I ask what, in particular, you didn't like about her portrayal of Minerva? That she gives in to Dumbledore? Or that she was not headmistress for as long as Dumbledore was? Was there anything else?

StormAngelxx, what made you think that JKR decided to change her female characters? I didn't think they'd changed that much, but then, I read the whole series very quickly (I was travelling a lot at the time) so I probably wouldn't have noticed any changes.

[hpimperfections]

I definitely think women don't play a big enough role in HP. I like Hermione except when she's into Ron and I kind of like Ginny. I also thought all the scenes where Minerva holds her own were great, but then she disappeared for the rest of the time. She had so much potential! Molly is ok, but the fact that she's a stay-at-home mom bothered me a bit (no offense intended to stay-at-home moms). It's understandable to want to be able to take care of your kids, but as they get older and go off to school I'd think she'd have more time to do stuff outside the house, like go on missions for the Order or something. Tonks is great, but there should be more female Aurors.
Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the movies are about 500 times more sexist than the books?

[monsie]

hpimperfections said:

Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the movies are about 500 times more sexist than the books?

Not really... Well, perhaps in that there was a lot of women-orientated stuff that was probably cut out because it was making the movies too long or something?

The only instance I can really think of is Bellatrix. As MinnieQuill has informed me, she has kicked many a butt in the books.

[MinnieQuill]

The only instance I can really think of is Bellatrix. As MinnieQuill has informed me, she has kicked many a butt in the books.

That my Bella does indeed. Helena Bonham-Carter actually said that a large amount of her scenes were cut, but that they also ddn't film that many. I was looking forward so much to seeing ALL of her duels in the Ministry of Magic, and we saw her for what? About five minutes, if that.

Ah well, twas always better in my head anyway (Bellatrix was taller, anyway.)

As for the rest of the women in the movies- well, it's not really that bad. Hermione gets a fair bit of screen time, and generally isn't a squealing git.

[RonnieLee]

Hmm maybe I'm being annoying by dragging this thread back up to the top?

Oh, well, just my two cents:

No one has yet mentioned Umbridge as a strong female character.

Yes, she is basically Fudge's croney, but you can't deny that, whether you're acting on orders or not, it takes a lot of balls to seriously anger a school full of upwards of a hundred witches and wizards, some of whom are very powerful. Especially considering the fact that she also had to live and teach there day in and day out.

Even if you are as evil as Umbridge, being hated by pretty much everyone around you is not an easy situation for anyone to be in. Constantly having people sneer and jeer at you and knowing that they all hate you is a lot to put up with while still maintaining your uncaring, strong veneer. Trust me, I know.

Also, I find it hard to believe that some of her "rule inforcement" tactics (the cutting quill, the fact that she was going to use Cruciatus on Harry even though it's illegal) are Ministry-ordered or even Ministry-approved. Fudge was generally described as having all the sense and nerve of a senile eighty-year-old granny; I think he would have been a bit afraid of Umbridge if he found out exactly what she was doing to extract the information that she was feeding him.

Her willingness to defy her superiors to achieve her own ends does show a certain strength, no matter how diabolical her deeds or what she plans to accomplish with them. Think about it: in the past, women have historically been thought of as "inferior" to men, and things like the suffrage movement and the feminist movement were viewed as "ridiculous" and even downright "evil" by many. Without defiant, gung-ho, determined women like Umbridge, every single member of this board (since I've yet to see any males around here) would be sitting at home barefoot, pregnant, and sewing curtains.

[MinervaMcGonagall]

ok, Umbridge is strong, but women who are evil/aggressive are viewed more poorly than men. Snape, although not nearly as bad as Umbridge, has plenty of fans out there. He's a horrible teacher and quite cruel. It seems as if a women is strong she is a bitch but if a man is assertive he's being a man.

[gryffindorprincess]

I feel that Hermonie and Minerva are very underapricated in all books. They should be potrayed stronger, because of the things they have to endure. It is terrible how she potrayes women. Being a woman herself she should potray women better, and stronger.

[monsie]

Regarding Umbridge, she is still a subordinate to Fudge. Even if she did do things without his knowledge, she was well aware that he was her boss, which is again similar to Bellatrix and Voldy and Minerva and Albus.

There appear to be no key women portrayed as being absolutely independent of male influence or superior to it.

As for Snape, I think a lot of his fan following has a lot to do with Alan Rickman. People fancy/like Alan, therefore they like Snape, I presume. I'm sure there are people out there who love Snape in the books and hate Alan's portrayal of him and people who like Umbridge. But Umbridge's character was not written to be liked. The pink, the sqeaky voice, the 'ahem'... Kind of pissed me off tbh. I liked her better when she really got rotten towards the end...and then was taken away.

[RonnieLee]

monsie said:

Regarding Umbridge, she is still a subordinate to Fudge. Even if she did do things without his knowledge, she was well aware that he was her boss, which is again similar to Bellatrix and Voldy and Minerva and Albus.

But Umbridge's character was not written to be liked. The pink, the sqeaky voice, the 'ahem'

Ha I never said I "liked" Umbridge. She just reminds me a bit of myself (I too have an obsession with pink and can be a huge bitch, among other things), except I'm not nearly as evil.

I agree with MinervaMcGonagall. Technically, Snape is subordinate to Dumbledore, and even to McGonagall, since she's the Deputy Head. He's a subordinate and a jerk, just like Umbridge, but he gets more fans (I know plenty of people who liked him even before the movies with Alan Rickman came out) because his being a douche is just seen as being "because he's a guy and had a troubled childhood," whereas Umbridge being a douche is "mental issues and permanent PMS."

Despite the fact that Rowling means for Umbridge to be kind of "off" in the sanity department, it reminds me so much of the Victorian attitude, where if a woman dared to speak up against a man or to be strong in any way, she was declared "mentally unstable," or it was just assumed that she was on her period.

[Blue]

I agree about the Victorian attitude thing, but it did come out in the end that all Umbridge was was a gigantic superbitch, whereas Snape on the other hand turned out to be quite a hero, and though he was a sarky jerk while he was at it, he did do a lot of good.
Sorry if this has already been said, I haven't read the whole post, perhaps I ought to.
I do agree that women are vastly insignificant in the HP series, I believe I posted here a while ago, but I do think that has to do with it being from Harry's point of view and that it is mostly males that affect his life.

btw gryffindorprincess, I totally heart your pm! total squee!!! <3

[gryffindorprincess]

blue said:

btw gryffindorprincess, I totally heart your pm! total squee!!! <3

Thank you! Blue.