Question of the 'Ages'

[Asphodel]

I've heard a lot of things about our favorite couple's ages, a lot of it due most likely to literary license. I know JKR descrbed Min as a 'sprightly 70' but...where does that leave Albus? I have my own idea formed, but I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Also...another question on ages. What age (if this isn't too incredibly rude) are most of the ladies on this board and the Yahoo Group? (noticed we appear to be all female, here) Just thought it would be interesting to see. Thanks!


~Asphodel

[angharad]

JKR has said in at least one interview that Albus is around 150, which means he's 80 years older than Minerva in Canon. Considering how he fought Voldemort without breaking a sweat in OoTP, I'd say he was quite a vigorous 150! JKR has also said that Wizards have longer lifespans than Muggles. In OoTP we actually meet someone who gave Albus his OWLs, so the long lifespan thing is obviously quite long indeed.

What this translates to, at least for me, is a Minerva who looks about 40 and an Albus who looks about 70-something in Muggle terms. My husband, on the other hand, thinks that Wizards age at about the same rate as Muggles, but without the diseases of old age. I think that's ridiculous, as even with no health issues 150 would be barely mobile, in my opinion. When I pointed that out to him, he put forth the idea that their aging process slows down after around age 21. What makes this whole thing so puzzling are the inconsistencies from JKR herself. Poppy says it's a wonder that the stunners didn't kill Minerva "at her age", yet Albus manages to kick serious keester at the Ministry without mussing his beard.

As for my own age, I'm forty, which probably makes me the oldest person on this board. Proof positive that the HP books are not for children. This will also explain why I never write about Albus & Minerva as anything but the ages they are in Canon. I'm continually learning that many things get better with age. Remember, Sean Connery is 74.

Cheers,

Angharad

[Catwoman99]

I agree with Angharad about Minerva appearing around 40 and Albus around 70. I think that wizards and witches just age differently than muggles. Maybe magic slows the aging process? As far as canon goes, in the first book I consider Minerva to be 70 and Albus 150. I'm actually not too fond of stories that change their ages too much.

To me, age doesn't matter where love is concerned. :-)

As for my own age, I am 23.

-April :-)

[ginger newts]

The thing with Madam Marchbanks having given Albus his NEWTS exams makes me wonder about just how old witches and wizards live to be myself. I have to agree with Angharad that they must age more slowly and except for the stunners comment, all the evidence points to the fact that they do. Otherwise, like she said, Albus as well as Professors Tofty and Marchbanks would be barely getting around. The aging process must be somewhat normal up to a certain point and then sort of slow down so that hearing, sight, and memory aren't as diminshed as they would be in Muggles.

I also always try to keep the 80ish year age difference set by JKR and like Catwoman, don't really like the stories that change that. It's sweet they can still be so perfect even with the large age gap, and it's sort of cool that he's 150 and can accomplish everything he does. I have to wonder if maybe in wizard terms, he's not closer to middle aged than she is. I mean, Minerva's hair hasn't even greyed yet...

It's a tricky question because Jo has never flat out answered anything about life spans in absolute terms and there is that odd inconsistent remark of Poppy's. I mean, I assume four stunners could do quite a bit of damage to anyone, and as she's not exactly young anymore... I guess the answer is nobody knows but Jo Rowling, I just hope she fills in some of these details. As an adult reader, I'm much more interested in these kinds of things and the lives of the adult characters than the kids sometimes.

Oh, and I'm 23, which I'm guessing is somewhere near the average age of the people posting here...I do like being part of a community that's mostly adults, it's so nice.

[Sensiblyquirky]

I agree with everything that has been said, but I wanted to add something about the "stunners" incident. True there is an inconsistency about what Madam Pompfrey says, but I sat down one day and thought about how long it took Minerva to get out of Mungo's. The answer is possibly five or so days. She gets hit, the next night is when they go to the department, and not long after that-i.e. next day or so she is back. Now that could point to her power, which we have yet to see the full extent of, or to the fact that 70 isn't that old in their world.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but to me younger people heal much quicker than older people and it took her less than one week to recover from four stunners to the chest.

Anyway, I agree and I try when i write to never change that age gap.

I'm 20!

Christy

[TabbyForever]

Hey all...i'm just agreeing with everything everyone's said so far!
For myself, there is no question of age, they rock regardless!!!!
And i'm going to continue as i am in my fic!!!hehehe

As for me...i've just about to turn 21

Jem.

[griseldalafey]

I agree that JKR is not very clear on the ages. Tofty and Marchbanks are both ancient but still working. Alastor Moody on the other hand, who I consider to be much younger then Albus is already retired

About the age-gap between Albus and Minerva, I think it's about 70 years.

And I'm 21

[Zerowolfgirl]

People here are alot older then me....-_-
Im 14...anyone less or equal to there? I don't wanna be alone!!! Anyway i agree with Angharad...

[TartanPhoenix]

I have to agree with everyone here. Albus seems to be closer to middle age than anything, especially if his test administrator is still up and kicking. I really do wonder just how long wizards life spans are. I would image the slowdown would come sometime not long after puberty ends. They would basically be done growing, and all of those wonderful hormones would have balanced out. I could be wrong here, so please correct me if you think I'm way off base.

As for me I'm 19

[Kit]

I'm 16...

[max]

Dear,

Asphodel said:

I've heard a lot of things about our favorite couple's ages, a lot of it due most likely to literary license. I know JKR descrbed Min as a 'sprightly 70' but...where does that leave Albus? I have my own idea formed, but I'd appreciate hearing from you.

I think, JKR said something about his age too: Around 150. But - as it was already expressed here: He's obviously quite springly.

Besides I think we must consider that most information we get about Albus in the books is seen through the eyes of Harry who's quite young. And youths about age ... oh my, that reminds me to the friend of my stepson. She was around 20 and as I asked her about how she'd spent Christmas, she told me she was with her parents and they had a party and "... it actually was a bit boring with all this old people". Looking at me she blushed then and added: "No offense meant!"
I'm 43 - and I actually wouldn't have counted myself to the "old people" if the darling wouldn't have got me to the idea. ;-)

Back to "our" Albus: I think he's to compare to a 70 year old muggle ... and I can tell you from personal experience: The old saying "Just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there isn't a fire in the furnace" is true. I live since almost five years very happily with a man who's 28 years my senior and nevertheless (almost) everything I ever dreamed for in a man (except that he never cleans up his things and always comes too late. But if he were neatly and punctual too he'd be too perfect).

And - I'm some one who's very much in use with couples of different ages. A thing for older men obviously runs in my family - my mother was 19 as she married my father who was this time 40 years old (and they're still and very happily married) and my favourite aunt was 25 as she fell in love with a man who was 32 years her senior. They became a very happy couple and even now, in being 54 and a widow my aunt says she'd have never regretted for a single second that she married her "old" man. And the next "case" just happened: My aunts daughter from this marriage, a beautiful 21 year old, just fell in love with a man who's 52.

From this experiences I think I can say that a big age gap makes in two cases for difficulties: When the wife is still very young and when the man finally becomes really "old". In concrete: My mother told me the first years with my father she sometimes became aware on the "hard way" that my father was older - in things like him being tired when she was still full of energy, in things like him patronizing her a bit (which is hardly to avoid for an experienced man with a young wife) and in standing up against him in arguments.

With the woman being in her middle age like I am it becomes easier. Even in being half a year younger as my partner's oldest daughter - I simply don't allow him to patronize me. I'm adult, I have my own experiences, I'm old enough to stand up for my own and for telling him he isn't my father, but my lover. And for understanding that he is in a few things "handicapped" by his age I'm old enough too. I know how it feels to have rheumatics (we sometimes suffer together from it) and being not very healthy myself, I can imagine how it feels to become "restricted" by your body. I even can already imagine how it feels to fear for your life when you're sick.

Besides: In our case the reactions of the world around aren't so harsh as in my cousin's case. My Beloved is rarely accused of being a "cribble craddler" (sp?) because I'm simply too old for people seing me as a child. And one can hardly say he'd have a young wife because he isn't man enough to stand up of an adult one - I am adult.
Yet ... some things you find in my fics like people telling me I should see a therapist for doing something against my "father complex" or even "friends" asking if I'd be in "necrophilia" happened to me or - something I really loathe - people wondering about me being frigide and therefore with a man who - so they say - is "out of the game".

The last is probably a reason why I always feel very strong about fics in which Albus is made younger. To me it always sounds a bit like "if he's in his 'canonical' age he isn't up to sex anymore". I'm probably extremely touchy in this case - because it reminds me so to the things I get to hear and which feel to me always like an offense not only against the man I love, but against my father and other men I adore too. Being older than 50 (or 60 or 70 as the case may be) doesn't mean a man loses his sex appeal and it certainly doesn't mean his woman starts to like Christmas better as sex because Christmas she gets more regularly. To quote the 76 year old lover of my best friend: "For what I lack in fitness I can make up with my experience" (he meant horse riding, but I can assure you: It goes for sex too).

So I don't feel uncomfortable with the AD/MM pairing as it is in their "canonical" age. Just on the contrary. What makes me feel uncomfortable are fics in which the writer makes him or both younger. I always wonder why people bother with them if they can't imagine (or even stand) the idea of older people enjoying romance and love and sex.

And there's another point I don't like in AD/MM fics: If they behave like teenagers. I came this days around a fic in which they reveal their love at last, but spent their first nights together in one bed not sleeping together. I'm sorry if I sound "harsh"* but I simply can't imagine people of this age behaving like that. Probably it's me being an European and having typical European moral standards (but ... Albus and Minerva are Europeans too, aren't they?), but the "rule" for me is: If I allow a man to come in an intimate situation with me (like sleeping in one bed or kissing me open mouthed) then I have made up my mind before. That means: In the moment I'm willing to become intimate with him, I'm willing to go the entire way.

Oops - do I make sense? Or am I just opening Pandora's box again?

I hope at last I didn't offend some one.

Yours
Max



* Angharad told me in a private discussion I do sometimes - and she's certainly right. But I must beg your pardon for it: English isn't my first language and therefore it's sometimes a bit difficult for me to express myself so "subtle" as I would wish to. So please: If you feel "offended" by something I say tell me and bear in mind, I probably didn't want to sound offending, but simply lacked the language skills to make it sound more polite.

[ginger newts]

Damn! I just typed out this huge response to this and then my computer did something stupid and now it's all gone. Sigh!

Well, I'll try to be brief. First, I wanted to agree with Max about the intimacy. I realize it's just as sweet to have a perfectly chaste intimate sort of moment, but I also don't see why they would wait. If they didn't get together until canon years as we often write then I have no problem seeing them fairly quickly jumping into the more passionate side of things. They're both mature adults who know what they want and could handle a physical relationship before marriage. They don't need to go to bed together right away in every fic of course, but I see no need for pointless waiting...

Actually, I have quite a personal debate over whether or not they're married. I can just as easily (maybe more easily) see them just living together as partners in every sense of the word without the formality of marriage.

The other thing I wanted to add is that I don't know if I'm misinterpreting your complaints or not but as far as writing them younger goes: I also dislike it when people make their ages closer together or write them at younger ages during the canon years. But I have no problem reading and writing fics that take place before the canon starts. I think it's fun to explore the years not covered in the books and if I'm going to write a getting together story I often like to write it 20 years or so in the past in order to give them more time together. On my part at least it has nothing to do with not being able to handle love making by people of their ages during the books, I'm sure they're very active and I think it's fantastic. Lemons that take place in 1995 are just as good as ones that take place in 1945 to me. Perhaps I'm misreading your comments and I appologize if I am. I just wanted to say that I think they're wonderful together and I'm sure sexually active at any age, but it's still fun to write about their pasts.

Oh, and to respond to Max's comments about older men. Go the women in your family! I've always had a thing for older men myself and I used to get teased about it a lot in college. If I were a witch and knew lifespans were longer I would totally fall in love with someone 80 years older, especially if he was as great as Albus! I'm sure it must be hard sometimes though, especially when he dies so much before you do. Sometimes I think about that for MM/AD and it makes me sad...but mostly I try not to think about them dying. Which brings me to a completely unrelated rant: Why so many death fics, why? I'm no longer reading those!

Okay, well I hope I didn't ramble too much and I made some sense. I just felt the need to interject again and I do hope I wasn't misunderstanding anyone.

[Sensiblyquirky]

I just wanted to add something about the settings of stories centered around my two favorite characters. I don't mind if the story takes place before the Harry Potter books, and in fact I write quite a few of those. I like to ponder on how they could have gotten together, or what their relationship was like before the Harry years. However, I do not change their age gap.

I think that is part of what makes them too cool as a couple, honestly. The fact that he is 80 years older, and that it doesn't matter at all. Not only that but, in my mind, it fits their characters. She is very mature, and I think most of us are willing to bet she has always been that way. While Albus can act like a little boy, or have little boy characteristics. It fits that she would want an older guy (who rock~i like older men myself), and that he wouldn't care about dating someone younger.

As to the marriage thing that is something I can't decide. I'd love to think they are married, but that first chapter always gets in my way of them even having a reltationship before then (don't kill me if you disagree!). At the same time I see them living as partners, married in every sense of the word but not on paper. I can see them not getting married for such and such reasons, and then just giving up the formalities after being "together" for so long.
The thing is I think they work the way they are. Now I like to think they have admitted feelings, which are returned , and are in a relationship; but I can also see them as not even having to say it. It is there. It will always be there. Their love, admiration, and devotion isn't something that needs to be bluntly stated or reinforced. It just is.

Of course I like to write them as having a much more romantic lovely relationship, b/c I just love them and they are too cute!

Christy

[Jestana]

Wow, quite a bit here. First of all, I'm almost 21.

I agree with everything that's been said for the most part. I actually think it's cute when they have a chaste intimate moment, but it would seem I'm in the minority a bit. If you read my fics, you'll notice that they rarely jump right into bed upon declaring their love for each other. I understand that it is a physical expression of their love, but there's so much more to it than the sex, though I imagine that it's quite fun.

Part of the reason for this is my own beliefs in the sanctity of marriage. I was raised to wait and I honestly haven't found anyone I would want to 'go all the way' with. Of course, I'm still young, so I still have time. It's also personal preference on my part. I write lemons in my head and they come out sounding uniform, so I don't really bother.

It drives me bonkers when people change Albus and Minerva's ages. If you don't like them being 150 and 70, why bother writing them at all?

Yes, shall just shut up now before I repeat what everyone else has said. *grin*

[max]

Dear Ginger Newts,

thanks for your interesting reply! I read it all with delight. May I take one point for further discussion?

ginger said:

But I have no problem reading and writing fics that take place before the canon starts. I think it's fun to explore the years not covered in the books and if I'm going to write a getting together story I often like to write it 20 years or so in the past in order to give them more time together. On my part at least it has nothing to do with not being able to handle love making by people of their ages during the books, I'm sure they're very active and I think it's fantastic. Lemons that take place in 1995 are just as good as ones that take place in 1945 to me. Perhaps I'm misreading your comments and I appologize if I am. I just wanted to say that I think they're wonderful together and I'm sure sexually active at any age, but it's still fun to write about their pasts.

My problem with stories of this kind simply is that they - at least in my humble opinion - simply don't fit canon.

And I'm a sticker to canon (that's probably connected to being an author too). Harsh said: I think messing around with canon characters too much is kind of "disrespectfull" against the original author. Admittely I must say that playing with the time line isn't so much my problem as playing with the characters. What really makes me climb walls is - for example - "Evil!Dumbledore". JKR made absolutely clear that he is the "good guy". Making him the bad guy is - in my opinion - showing that the ff author doing so doesn't care about the original author and that's something I really can't stand.

Yet back to the time line problem and the canon situation for our favourite couple: I've read the start of "Philosopher's stone" more than once ... and I really don't think you can get from there to Minerva and Albus having an intimate relationship. There are - once again: In my opinion - too much things which stands against - like their addressing each other with their formal titles. Even in calling my Beloved "Professor" (he is one) sometimes too - I only do so when I'm ironic with him about something. But I simply can't imagine a couple in this situation using the formal addresses.
And there's another point: Both of them obviously didn't know how the other spent the day. She's even kind of "surprised" that he recognized her in her cat form immediately - what for me once again speaks against an intimate relationship. And her questions to him show that she didn't have a clue where he was and what he did. Yet partners usually have an idea about the whereabouts of their significant others. So if JKR would have wanted to show them as a couple, she wouldn't have written this scene this way, me thinks.

And with that all stories about young Minerva falling in love with Albus and becoming his partner are kind of "AU" for me.

And the idea of a secret marriage ... oh, oh... I must admit I'm always uncomfortable about. The "explanations" for it always seem a little "lame" for me. The governors forbidding intimate relationships between members of the staff? And a strong man like Albus Dumbledore buying that and acting after it? I don't believe so. He'd probably tell the governors they should stick this rule where the sun doesn't shine! I don't think he allows some one to rule about his private life. And the same goes for the explanation "He'd made so many enemies in his life and he doesn't want them to know about his private life". If he would bow to his enemies like that he wouldn't be the man he is. Besides: Keeping a marriage secret makes for living it like a fishy affair - and considered he's born a Victorian I simply can't imagine he'd demand a woman he loves to risk her reputation by doing so.

And think of Minerva! A lioness sneaking around? A lioness not standing up to her love? A lioness allowing a Tom Riddle to rule her life? That's unthinkable to me.

Probably it's only me but I want AD/MM as strong as I can get them. And that means to me they're honest, brave and standing up to each other ...

Max
"But that's my opinion and I'm well aware that my opinion certainly isn't the only one which can count."

[ginger newts]

Sigh, once again my wonderful response got eaten by the computer somewhere along the way.

Simply put: Max and Christy both make excellent points about the first chapter and while that's where many of us first suspected them of having feelings for each other it does sort of make a case for them not being together until after that (okay, if ever...sad thought). But since we don't really know yet for sure.....*shrugs*

Max, believe it or not, I too am a stickler for canon stuff and I hate it when people recharacterize the characters to fit their own little world, maybe having Albus and Minerva get together before that is doing that and I've just gotten too deeply submerged in the fanon world at this point, but I hope not and I don't think so. This is why I started the other thread with the editorial. I hate it when people do things like write dark!Minerva or evil!Albus, I can't and won't read that. Or when people give them some ridiculous back story that just wouldn't make sense in the real HP world. I certainly mean no disrespect to Jo Rowling when I write them getting together earlier and I think she's given us just enough history that it's okay to sort of fill in some details ourselves. Of course, when we actually get more backstory later some of us will likely find glaring inconsistencies in our fics but that's what makes it fun for now.

I actually think it's worse to write post-Order fics than pre-Stone fics because it's like you're second guessing the real author or saying that you know better what should come next. That is just plain rude. I mean, I think summer after AD/MM fics are okay because she'll more than likely never give us that. Quite honestly, everything we've written and everything we believe about them could turn out to be wrong from a canon point of view (okay they should be together and if they're not then Jo is blind as well as AD/MM j/k). But I sincerely hope it's not.

I had another point to make here and now it's gone. Oh well, I'll really try to stop rambling and not respond back to every point. I just really enjoy over-analyzing things (I'm a psychologist, it's ingrained in me) as well as debating points (whether or not I even agree with what I say, I like to play devil's advocate from time to time).

Oh, and I totally think they're both really strong both magically and personality-wise and that they would stand up to problems and enemies, it's just wildly unprofessional to act like a couple in front of the school and I think neither would be one for public displays of affection. And Christy, pal, great point about the maturity thing, I've tried to get younger readers who think 80 years is gross to understand that for ages. I have no trouble seeing Minerva at 17 pretty much exactly the way she is now and Albus really can be like a little boy sometimes. But the simple fact of the matter is that age doesn't matter. True love, devotion and respect like they have (or seem to have) for each other just transcends those kinds of barriers. Though I suppose it would have been even easier had they gotten together sometime between the first chapter and the rest of the books.... Okay, really finished this time.

[Sensiblyquirky]

Posting again...because I want to.

Ok about the recharacterization aspect of fanfiction: I too hate it when some stories make AD or MM out to be evil, but the thing is we don't know every aspect of their personality. I think it is more obvious in Minerva. You shouldn't write her as evil, or flippant etc...because all evidence we have contradicts that. However there is a softer side to her, or I think there is, that we don't see. We don't see it because Harry, being a typical teenager (we all go through it, myself included-could still be who knows) is so self-centered. Hermione is the only one that seems to see a different side to McGonagall, but the book is not told from her POV. Since Harry cannot or refuses to see whether there is more to the strict facade known as Professor McGonagall I think it is reasonable as writers to come up with that so long as it does not contradict the parts we do know.

For example I think she is a very emotional person, she cries more than she would want to, and from that I would like to think she is highly passionate she just hides it. From Harry's POV there isn't direct evidence, note direct, to support that she is highly passionate but I feel that wouldn't contradict what we have been shown.

So basically adding to their personalities as long as those additions are not in conflict I see as acceptable (but that is merely my wie little opinion).

No one has to take me up on this, and Meredith and I have discussed it before, but I would love to discuss that first chapter. There are aspects of it that just don't make sense to me. For example how she honestly thinks he wouldn't know her. I mean she started working there in the 50's, what 56ish?, and became his deputy in the 70's, i presume. Now maybe it is just me, but don't you think he would know what her tabby self looked like after working with each other for a number of years? Especially because, I can only assume, when she was made his deputy she would not have been the ranking senior Professor, so wouldn't you think they worked well together or...fill in the blank (i lost my thought). That and he's Dumbledore--perhaps JKR was using it to merely introduce them: she sits so stiffly and he knows everything.

Ok I'll stop! (you're jumpin with joy, i know)

Christy

[Jestana]

I would have to go back and re-read that first chapter of SS, but I really can't see how he wouldn't recognize her. As Christy said, they've worked togethr for almost 40 years (yes, she would have started in 56) and she's been his deputy for awhile, maybe not right away, but it would seem they're both quite comfortable with him as Headmaster and her as Deputy Headmistress. Perhaps he just caught her off guard or something. In my PoV fics, they get together between the first and second chappies of SS, but I could be wrong. In any case, I'm going to shut up now.

[ginger newts]

I agree, they've been working together for quite some time before now of course he's going to know it's her. The thing to be careful of with Ms. Rowling is that everything is not as it appears to be all the time. Many innocent looking sentences turn out to hold the answer the biggest mysteries. I haven't read it extremely recently, but I believe the cat bit goes something like this:

Albus: "I should have known...Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGongagall."

Minerva: *changes back looking distinctly ruffled* "How did you know it was me?"

Albus: "My dear Professor, I have never seen a cat sit so stiffly."

Now, here's the thing. We don't know she's distinctly ruffled because he recognized her...it's more than likely from spending the entire day as a cat sitting on a wall. And he doesn't really answer her question does he? Perhaps Jo neglected to inform us of some element to this banter, like their tones of voice. I for one feel like neither of them is surprised. He's not surprised she's there and I'm not so sure she's surprised he recognized her.

Not that this means they're romantically involved at this point, but the fact remains that they've known each other for far too long for her to have thought she could surprise him. Therefore, my best guess is that there's something subtle about this interaction that we just haven't noticed yet...in order words, true to form Jo has wonderfully mislead us somehow.

Just my two cents....

Oh, and if they're not together here, they're SO flirting. Come on, "Oh, by the way, I've got this interesting scar above my knee"...dirty old man. "You're so noble" *swoon*

[griseldalafey]

~Quote~ Oh, and if they're not together here, they're SO flirting. Come on, "Oh, by the way, I've got this interesting scar above my knee"...dirty old man. "You're so noble" *swoon*

I'm going to give a full reply on this topic, once I've got everything together, but for now I just want to say: ;D Hahahahahahahaha ;D Lemon Alert!!! Did I just say that?

[angharad]

How Albus recognizes her is definitely one of the inconsistencies in the books. The obvious answer would have been, "By your eye markings, of course." Perhaps there's a way to disguise certain markings, or maybe she thought it was too dark to see them that clearly, or maybe this is just another one of JKR's "Flints". She has said in at least one interview that first chapters are the most difficult to write, and that this one was excruciating because she had to both give and withhold a lot of information at the same time. She has also said that she plans to revise all the books when she's done with the series, in order to fix some things.

Animagus recognition aside, I don't think they're a couple in the first chapter because of all the things she obviously doesn't know. I do think he is a bit flirtatious with her in that chapter, and there are moments in the entire series that certainly indicate a great deal of closeness. But, hey, that's why we're all here, right?

I, personally, don't mind stories that have them falling in love after the events of the first chapter of PS/SS, but before Harry arrives at Hogwarts, i.e. between November 1, 1981 and September 1, 1991. That, for me, would take into account the ambiguities of the first chapter, while giving them more time together.

What I cannot abide are the stories that have them romantically involved while she is a student. The Albus of the books is too good, wise, honorable, and has too much life experience ever to betray the trust of the students in his care or the parents that have placed them there. When I encounter such a story, I choose not to read it, period. Besides, for me it's just not Canon.

Off to the grocery store,

Angharad

[Tabby Bee]

Well, I have some facts and they said that Minerva was 70 and Albus as 120. I dunno, they just said that, not me, so it's what I believe.

Oh, and I'm turning 14 on March 3rd. Just so y'know.

-TB

[ginger newts]

*raises hand* I have a question:

Angharad, you said in a reply to "Magical Elements" that you were writing an MM/SS/RL fic but here you said you hate anything that goes against the canon. *confused* Isn't that a very non-canon thing to write?

Really not trying to pick a fight, just found it worth asking about, hope you don't take this offensively.

[Sior]

Angharad said:

.

What I cannot abide are the stories that have them romantically involved while she is a student. The Albus of the books is too good, wise, honorable, and has too much life experience ever to betray the trust of the students in his care or the parents that have placed them there. When I encounter such a story, I choose not to read it, period. Besides, for me it's just not Canon.

And here was me thinking I was the only one. I don't have any problem with the age difference between them. In my mind it's the only conflict in an otherwise perfect pairing. I think if it wasn't for that age difference it would be almost universally accepted that they ought to be together.

It's a conflict which I can't ultimately see hindering the two of them though. In terms of temperment there so perfect together... *dreamy sigh*

The one thing I can't take on the subject of ages though is student!Minerva professor!Dumbledore. It just seems so so wrong to me. It's to Pygmallion for me entirely and I don't think it reflects at all well on Albus.

[angharad]

ginger said:

*raises hand* I have a question:

Angharad, you said in a reply to "Magical Elements" that you were writing an MM/SS/RL fic but here you said you hate anything that goes against the canon. *confused* Isn't that a very non-canon thing to write?

Really not trying to pick a fight, just found it worth asking about, hope you don't take this offensively.

AD/MM is, in my opinion, the adult pairing that is most supported by Canon. However, that being said, I don't think that RL/MM/SS is non-canon, *if it is written very carefully*. I think it's safe to assume, based on Canon, that Minerva and Remus are friends. I also think it's quite possible that Minerva and Severus are reasonably friendly, again based on Canon.

The story I'm attempting to write is something I was asked to attempt, and it's proving to be excruciating. It explores each man's reactions to the attack upon her, the effects of Sirius' death on all three of them, and puts them in the crucible of Glastonbury Tor on the Eve of Lughnasdh which, among other things, was a place of power for Merlin and is a hotspot for present day geomancy. I may never get the story done, because I'm having a hard time finding a way to get Remus and Severus to share anything, let alone Minerva!

Why do you automatically think that RL/MM/SS is non-canon? Is it because you think that Minerva would never participate in a threesome? If so, then you certainly won't want to read the AD/MM/SS story I wrote a couple of months ago. Is it because you can't imagine her with a younger man? Why is it more canon for Minerva to be romantically involved with a man 80 years her senior than with a man (or men) 35 years her junior? Remember, Severus and Remus have not been students for a long time and, in PoA, were both her colleagues.

We are all here because we have a certain interpretation of Canon. There are those who only see Minerva as the strict, spinster schoolteacher type, and write her that way. I think OoTP showed us a lot more to her. In particular, the way she led the passive resistance to Umbridge, and the fact that she encouraged Peeves indicates to me a little bit of rebel buried inside the strict Professor we love. When I add that to what previous books, and JKR, have revealed, I come up with the version of Minerva you see in my stories.

The bottom line is, we don't know who, if anyone, Minerva is involved with. We do know, however, how old she, Albus, Severus, and Remus are. That is where I get "Canon Cranky". When people deliberately ignore what has been spelled out in Canon and in interviews with JKR, and arbitrarily decide that Albus & Minerva are only a few years apart in age, or that Minerva is the same age as Severus, I get annoyed. Basically, if JKR says it, we should believe it. If she doesn't, that's where we can get creative.

Off to make dinner,

Angharad

[ginger newts]

I do hope you weren't suggesting that I am one of those people who believes she's only the stern teacher Harry sees. Minerva has been my favorite character from the first time I opened the first book and I certainly believe there is a huge amount of depth to her. She just doesn't show it much, being the Scotswoman that she is. I could go on for pages about my perceptions of her, but that's not why I'm here at the moment.

I also have no problems believing that she is friends with Remus and even that she and Severus are more amenable towards each other than is apparent on the surface. However, I do not think that she would become romantically involved with either of them because to put it bluntly, she was made for Albus and he for her and I'm sorry but I can not possibly entertain any pairing or threesome that goes against that. I did run across your AD/MM/SS story once and must confess that I stopped reading it about halfway through. No offense intended, but as much as you're a stickler for canon, I'm a stickler for AD/MM together and only together. Not that I can't see them being kinky, I just don't see them sharing with Severus. If I didn't feel that all signs pointed so strongly to AD/MM I might be willing to entertain other partners for her, it has nothing whatsoever to do with age as I think I've made more than clear already. If I can ship her with someone 80 years older, I'd like to think I could be open to someone half her age...but I just don't see it in the books as anything more than friendship with anyone else.

The story you're talking about sounds interesting, unless there is implied romance between the three of them...I have no trouble, like I said, seeing her as friends with either of them...but when it comes to romance I'm an AD/MM purist. Again, no offense meant at all, it's just the way I am. There are stories I've written that according to what you've said here you probably haven't enjoyed or haven't read. That's the way it goes in this fanon world, we all have our quirks and must read and write what we feel comfortable with. I completely agree that if JKR says it, it's gosple truth as to the books, and if she hasn't then there's room for speculation. However, to me the only canon posibility for romance for Minerva is with Albus. All signs point to them and I just feel it's very obvious and I don't enjoy reading anything that says different. Anyway, best of luck with your story....

[angharad]

ginger said:

I do hope you weren't suggesting that I am one of those people who believes she's only the stern teacher Harry sees. Minerva has been my favorite character from the first time I opened the first book and I certainly believe there is a huge amount of depth to her. She just doesn't show it much, being the Scotswoman that she is.

I was *not* suggesting you were one of those people who only see the Minerva Harry sees. I don't think anyone on this board does, in fact. Otherwise, she wouldn't interest us. She's always been my favorite character, too.

I also have no problems believing that she is friends with Remus and even that she and Severus are more amenable towards each other than is apparent on the surface. However, I do not think that she would become romantically involved with either of them because to put it bluntly, she was made for Albus and he for her and I'm sorry but I can not possibly entertain any pairing or threesome that goes against that.

I prefer Minerva with Albus, and there was a time when I didn't even bother to read any other Minerva pairings. Then I came across Shadowycat's MM/SS and MM/RL stories. Her stuff is beautiful and believable.

I did run across your AD/MM/SS story once and must confess that I stopped reading it about halfway through. No offense intended, but as much as you're a stickler for canon, I'm a stickler for AD/MM together and only together.

It is certainly your perogative to stop reading a story when it turns into something you don't agree with. I certainly do. That AD/MM/SS story was one of those plot bunnies that would not leave me alone, and it suprised me, to tell the truth. I certainly knew it would not be everyone's cup of tea.

There are stories I've written that according to what you've said here you probably haven't enjoyed or haven't read. That's the way it goes in this fanon world, we all have our quirks and must read and write what we feel comfortable with.

I heartily agree! However, you should know that when I see your name on a story, my first reaction is to say "Oh goodie!"

I completely agree that if JKR says it, it's gosple truth as to the books, and if she hasn't then there's room for speculation. However, to me the only canon posibility for romance for Minerva is with Albus. All signs point to them and I just feel it's very obvious and I don't enjoy reading anything that says different.

For the record, I believe that by far the strongest possibility for romance for Minerva in canon is with Albus. They are my favorite pairing to read and write, and the vast majority of my writing is about them. I'm one of those writers who agonizes over every word, and I find it so much easier to write AD/MM because it just feels right, and I can hear them in my head, so to speak. However, as in everything else I do, I try to keep an open mind. In addition, and now I will reveal how pathetic I truly am, I sometimes think that Albus will not survive the series, and worry about Minerva as a result. Thus, I occasionally explore the idea of pairing her with others. Of course, what really worries me is that JKR will reveal in book 6 or 7 that Minerva has a husband in Hogsmeade or something.

[ginger newts]

Those are my biggest fears as well. I never even thought about the possibility that Albus might die until I started reading so many message boards where people are convinced he will have to. It makes me sadder than anything, especially for Minerva. And now I will reveal something pathetic about myself...I no longer read deatfics because the first few that I read (against my better judgement) caused me to cry like I have not cried in a long time. I won't go on about it, but it was highly upsetting and I'm not someone who cries easily, therefore I chose not to read them now. And I know that if that happens in the books I will be most upset. I also would hate it if either of them turns out to be involved with someone else because I can't even imagine them with anyone else and they're so damned adorable together. And because it would mean I'm wrong and that's not something I take lightly.

In closing, let me say that it made my morning to hear you respond to my stories with an "Oh goodie." I too enjoy most of yours and to me it's not the end of the world at all that we've each written something the other prefers not to read.

I'm going to say again how much I love that pretty much everyone here is an adult, it makes these sorts of debates so much more enjoyable when everyone can be mature and open minded about stuff.

[ArabellaFiggs]

Ok, first of all, I love this dissgusion.

A few weeks ago I found this book
"Why we love Harry Potter"
and it's very funny.
The book is full of letters from kids to there favourite character and random facts about HP.
Acourding to the book Dumbledore is the favourite teacher (for the kids) and afther him McGonagall
so our favourite characters are loved all around the world I think. Just wanted to let you guys know,
but maybe you allready knew.

I think everybody is writing (always a little bit) out of canon because their isn't much what we know about AD/MM.
But it's fanfic so, why not?
I think everybody must write what makes him or her ( in our case her ) happy. And if you don't like it that's fine, you don't have to read it.

Personally I like romance and fluffy story's.
And I prefer when Minerva isn't a student anymore.
Oh yes, I'm 18 years old.

Maybe we could make a calander and when it's somewhone birthday it's stand on top of the messageboard, just like yesterday with McGonagall birthday.

Oh and forgive my teribble englisch.
Very ashamed of myself.