Albus Emasculated

[Karlynne]

I have a question I've wanted to ask for quite a while. Are we emasculating Albus in our stories? Do we portray Albus the way we wish he would be because the vast majority of us are women and we know what we want in a man?

My hubby, Alex, has taken me to task many times over this issue and especially when I write a story that he feels robs Albus of his due. I want to know if anyone else feels we are making him appear too 'sensitive' or too 'emotional' or any other characteristic that doesn't relegate him to neanderthal status.

We've just finished another debate on whether or not Albus is sharing more of himself in our stories than he would in canon and whether or not we are making him too ooc. I am hoping many of you have an opinion, not to take my side over his or vice versa but because I am attempting to nail down his character at some point in my lifetime. Karlie

[ginger newts]

I don't think you have to act like a caveman to be a man, in fact it probably shows more security in your masculinity if you can be sensitive from time to time. However, I will conceed that we probably on occasion write Albus as our own idea of the perfect man and may let bits of his true character slide away.

The thing about sharing is a good question, I'm sure he shares more of himself and his thoughts with those closest to him even though we never hear of it. No doubt there are things he keeps to himself because he seems to like to think things all the way through before saying anything, but there are things I doubt he would keep Minerva completely in the dark about especially if they're a couple. Even the greatest wizard of the age needs someone to talk to now and then.

Just my two cents...

[Kamdra]

I think ever since OOTP came out and that one tear trickled down Albus' cheek, I have read more crying Albus stories because JKR showed us a bit more of his human side. I don't think its less realistic than Snape being nice to Harry stories. Now that's a stretch. Kammie

[Sensiblyquirky]

Yes and No. ;D I think the majority of us write him crying too much, but that is coming from a female who does not think it is dreamy if her future mr. right would cry when he proposed but would rather ask him why on earth he was crying and then tell him to stop. (sorry my roomie thinks that would be the best thing ever, no offense to any of you that share her opinion.)

However I think we write Albus understanding more than the average man would, per se, because in the books he knows almost everything. If he can know all he does in the books, why can't he know (even if it would require him being sensitive or maybe seeing things from a female perspective) what would bother Minerva and etc? I think guys can really get almost afraid of the tears because they don't always know what caused them. Maybe I'm wrong but they are probably thinking: 'oh great. i dont' know what caused them or how to get her to stop..." If Albus knows, which I think is feasible, it naturally gives him an edge in some situations.

I do agree with...Meredith, I think, that we most likely incorporate the 'dream guy' into Albus, but we don't necessarily stick to canon with Minerva either if that defines the parameters.

my thoughts at the end of a long day, hopefully they make sense.

Christy

[Kandice]

Perhaps it isn't emasculation as much as it is turning Albus into an ordinary man. In canon he is mysterious, seemingly all-knowing, and definitely powerful but we often can't capture the same characteristics or it doesn't suit the story. I've heard enough whining from Alex to know that its the excessive revelations that disturb him.

In canon Albus is not as open and in the fics we have him spilling his guts to Moody, Aberforth, Minerva, Poppy, Severus, OC's we've created, and the canon Albus plays things close to his chest. Perhaps we're just making the extraordinary ordinary.

[Lady Jolly]

I think most of the stories show Albus as a sensitive and caring man. But also that he can be a real leader and serious. Though some stories have Albus as a bit OOC. But it's all good.

I'd like to hear some guys comment on this and see what they think. Cuz I don't read much from them(It's mostly girls i read from but that's okay )

Lady Jolly

[Taylor]

emasculation
Castration of the male by removal of the testis and/or penis.

The argument would be that because we have made him sensitive we have taken away his ablity to be a man.

*Flitwick upon hearing the news that Ginny had been taken into the chamber of secrets burst into tears*

Now, I am using Flitwick as an example of the sensitive side of JKs writing. She has no problems with allowing men to show emotions. If you look at how his character was developed, he has no problems with the students dispite his size, his emotions, or that he likes cherry syrup... AND he is part Goblin.

While as a rule wizards don't wear pants, its not to say that we are making Minerva in charge of everything and letting Albus take the back seat in the relationship.

Men cry. It does not make them less of a man. Men are sensitive, and nurturing, and it would not be in the nature of Albus to beat his chest with his fist and swing through the trees.

Even Hagrid, who is a giant cried. (allot) and it can't be said that he is less of a man because of it.

true, we have him being tender, loving & sensitive- and in the same light, we have him having cracking good sex with his favorite lady- and except for a rare story the majority of it is HE makes love to her, NOT SHE rips off his cloths and has her way with him. I have only come across ONE store in all my years of reading that was a parody that did what your husband had asked.

Its just a story. Its just a character. Each person shows emotion in their own way.
Even Snape, who put himself between Lupin the werewolf and the children (whom he had given grief to since the day they entered into his classroom, showed caring and compassion- and if he can, then, why not Albus?
;D

Taylor

[Kalex]

Speaking as a male member of this board, I think I should clarify something. Emasculation is also defined as to weaken a person. I have read several stories where Albus is running around asking advice from various characters on how to regain favor with Minerva or such and I don't believe its in his nature to do so. It's not to say he is isolated and wouldn't speak with anyone but at times he appears to have verbal diarrhea and I don't believe that's in character.

I don't think tears weaken a man. I am certainly secure enough to do so without feeling like I'm less of a man. In OOTP Albus had to pause for a moment while reading the paper in which the kids signed their names. He was touched that they named their group, "Dumbledore's Army".

Showing emotion doesn't weaken a man. When Hagrid bursts into tears its a wonderful sign of his sensitive nature, if Albus were to do the same it would be out of character and therefore a trait that I feel weakens him. Showing insight into Albus' character doesn't mean changing who he is but simply enhancing the characteristics he's already shown.

He is supposed to be wise but we often portray him as clueless. I understand the nature of man and woman are supposed to be opposite and therefore conflicts will be the basis of many stories and I certainly like to read how they resolve them. My disagreement stems in part from how these conflicts are resolved.

Men disguise many of their emotions through anger or they attempt to shrug it off and ignore it. There are no patented 'male' or 'female' responses but even in canon Albus doesn't go storming off and he's dealt with Cornelius many times and would have every reason to do so. He reins in his emotions and while they may be displayed in private, he doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve.

Even at the earliest of writings that I've seen Albus is at least ninety odd years of age but I've seen him behave like a hormonal teenager and that is what I mean by weaken. While Minerva may be young or middle aged, Albus, at 80 years her senior, will have experienced much more from life and we would see better masking of his emotions.

I enjoy reading about Albus I just think a little study in how males react might be needed. I don't expect every male to react the way I would and I have been impressed with the many ways Minerva is portrayed. I believe she is easier for some to write and this is possibly because of the female connection. I would just like to see Albus as more of a man and less as one of the girls.

I am not making fun of women in any way nor belittling them. Men and women are different and I certainly appreciated the differences.

Those of you in relationships with men or who have been in them need can probably relate to this comment. If a woman is in a tirade or even just discussing a topic on which they disagree, many men while not getting up to leave the room, will tune them out after a while. They certainly aren't going to listen attentively to every word spoken so they can counter it. Avoidance is a skill most men learn and practice.

I hope this clears up what I feel is a weakening of his character.

Kalex

P.S. I would love to hear from anyone other than my wife or sister-in-laws or anyone else related through marriage as I've already heard their arguments.

[Catwoman99]

Wow, this is a good topic. I'm now going to reread my stories to see how I portrayed Albus and I will probably pay more attention to how I write him in the future.

I do agree that we more than likely write him as our perfect man or as close to it as possible. Perhaps some of that stems from the books where he sometimes gives the impression of being some sort of uber-wizard that can do no wrong. He is Albus Dumbledore, greatest wizard of the age, why would he not also be the greatest lover, husband, etc. But I know a lot of stories that don't portray him as perfect, which I like.

I do agree with Alex that some writers have an easier time with Minerva because of the female connection. But that's what we know. We know how women think. I enjoy writing Albus more than I do Minerva because it challenges me to think differently. I'm sure I have more to learn about writing Albus, and men in general. I have more to keep in mind now when I do. Thanks Alex. It's always refreshing to get a male's point of view. (And someone other than my own husband, who wants me to have Albus hit up a strip club in Vegas!)

This reminds of that scene in "As Good as it Gets" where a lady asks Jack Nicholson's character how he writes women so well to which he replies, "Easy. I think of a man and I take away reason and accountablilty." Not he answer she was hoping for I'd imagine. Don't ask me why I though of that.

[Kalex]

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Albus take a trip through one of the strip joints either, whether accidentally or on purpose. Not all men will be interested but I think most would admit to some curiosity when their significant other isn't around. Kalex

[Sensiblyquirky]

First I should say I agree with many of your points. I hope to work on how I portray Albus, as you suggest: "I enjoy reading about Albus I just think a little study in how males react might be needed." So the next time you see a 150 year old man, I'll even take a mortal one over a wizard, please point him in my direction so I may ask him.

Christy

[Taylor]

There is a comfort level with feeling that because he is older, that he wouldn't be the young teen in love/ lust.

I knew a man who was 95, at a nursing home and the girls would grin when he came by. You see he was dating about 14 of them at the same time, kept them all happy, and when his wife found out, she couldn't tell her kids why she wanted a divorce after many years of marrage. and yes, he was a teen in love when he was with the ladys.

Now, I do have a fair idea of how men think, and react. I have seven brothers, and one sister, and she was married before I was 14, so there wasn't many tea partys and flouncy dresses, more like catching snakes in the back yard and hiding the mice we caught to feed it from my mom & dad.

what, seems to be the issue, is if people can imagine Albus doing and saying what he does in the story. Frankly, for some the idea of elderly adults having sex is mind boggling. Guess what? they do. and they do have foreplay, and I know this isn't the lemon area, so I will be polite here and go no furthe as to what else they do.

Now the next question was, would he seak advice even though he is a wise wizard and the answer, provided by JKs writing in OOP is yes. The reason why the portrates are in the headmasters office is...

to render advice and assistance when ever needed. Just because we don't see it in the dialoge, doesn't mean he doesn't say, now what would make her happy,,

Albus is human and at the end of OOP, he is admitting to Harry that he has made mistakes, and I don't know which book it was that he also said he didn't know something.
as for my definition, that was taken directly from the dictionary.

Please remember

Its only a story. These are not real people, and we are not being paid to write, we write and read to have fun with this. Thats the whole point!! FUN!

If you want something really worth being concerned about, drag eachother to the drs for cancer screenings. Deal with the todays, so you have tomorrows, and if the end is near, stay till after the credits roll.

Anything else is just marshmellow fluff.

Taylor.

[Jaya]

But sometimes marshmellow fluff is highly enjoyable and highly entertaining... and we all need some fun and laughs in our life.

I enjoy reading other people's opinions and observations and I've given this one a lot of thought over the day. Yes, I do tend to idealize Albus in my stories, though not intentionally. I will certainly be paying more attention to this when I write my stories... which are my escape from the rigours of the day... as I suspect they may be for other people on the list too.

Kalex, thank you for offering an male insight.

Jaya

[Kacie]

I think we are missing the point.The question is are we writing Albus to behave in mannerisms that women typically employ because we are female.

I don't think anyone is belittling anyone's work or how Albus's character is written. I think its a valid question. I am not reading fanfic for simply fun. I read to hopefully improve my own writing skills and character portrayal can be difficult. Some may see it as a careless harmless way to fill their day but I take writing seriously and although I've only published small articles so far, I do desire to write the great american novel.

Most of the stories on the board do not deal with Albus in his professional role but his private life and I doubt he includes many people to the most intimate details of his life. With the enemies he has, he would be a fool.

I don't believe Albus is close to every Order member on the same level but I've read stories where he and Minerva risk revealing their relationship. I take those stories at face value. It is meant to entertain and it does. The question of whether Albus is being emasculated doesn't come into play. I don't think its a question of OOC but whether we women are thinking of Albus and having him react in ways that aren't exactly the first most men would take.

Since a man is asking the question he must see something that we (women) are missing. I asked my husband to read several stories without asking hiim why and then asked if he felt Minerva was too masculine or not and he said nope she was a wonderful woman in the stories, sometimes strong, sometimes loving, etc. Then he said the only problem he picked up was that Albus was usually written in the same vein and he is not familiar with HP but even he knows Albus is a male and lemons aside, most men are less emotional than women.

Its not to say he has none at all but I hardly think my husband would bemoan an argument with me to his brother, best friend, employees, and students even if they witnessed the argument.

[Karlynne]

Okay I just got the biggest laugh. Alex thought to prove his point a little more by saying no man is that romantic every time he is with a woman and sometimes a man wants sex and he doesn't have to be vulgar or thoughtless or inconsiderate but the way we have Albus behaving at times is definitely from a female's viewpoint and not a males.

I had to concede on a few minor points. Albus would definitely be a considerate lover but aside from a few writers that have done an excellent job or portraying the male side, most of the romance is strictly seen through a feminine eye, whether written in Albus' point of view or Minerva's.

So I have promised to try harder to write stories that balance a little better and he has promised not to criticize my feminine flair.

I think character assessments are difficult and trying to write someone in charcater is a pain so a llittle ooc is prudent at times for the sake of the author's sanity.