OMG! FInal Chapter Spoilers.

[foci]

The connection is that Voldie's diary was a Horcrux. That's it.

[Herzele]

That's what I thought, too, but I wasn't absolutely sure. Thanks for clearing it up for me !!

And, Lies, I agree - "lame" is the No1 HBP word ...

[rogueinker]

Lame? Somewhat. HBP lacked the rich, escapist feel of the other books and the content wasn't great. However, I'm an optimist and I view HBP as a writer.

We got used to each book being a standalone with its own adventure. HBP is setting up the last book. For the last book to make sense and still be entertaining, Rowling had to be selective about how she wrote HBP. As writers out there will attest, it is hard to set up things for maximum effect later on. We mere fanfic writers only have to deal with setup in one chapter or over a shorter story frame. Rowling has to deal with it as an entire book and series. Daunting. Intimidating.

By comparison to the previous books, HBP suffers. However, taken by itself as a good setup to the last installment, I think it succeeds. It has provoked strong emotions - dread anticipation and a mounting deperate need to know what happens next. And isn't that the point of a good story?

Side note - One reason I prefer the Snape-to-be-redeemed-somehow theory is because it makes my favorite character, Dumbledore, less fallible and more deserving of his reputation and credibility as the wizard feared most by Voldemort because he was SMARTER. To my mind, him having a plan makes his death more meaningful. Let something good come from his death, not something accidental like Sirius was.

I could be horribly wrong but until the next book is out, I’ll keep the depressive nosedive at bay with my theory. Yes, I think Snape will buy it in the last book.

[Alesia]

I have to agree with Rogueinker on her last point. I guess I am okay with Dumbledore dying if there was a purpose. Although maybe the purpose is really to understand and know one's faults. IE Albus knew when he made a mistake he made big ones (certainly trusting Snape was huge - if Snape really is bad) and the lesson for Harry is too be more careful about his own faults (IE running off half cocked) but then again didn't he learn that lesson with Sirius.

And I agree just because our ship wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it isn't canon, at least not yet. I am just upset that we got more shipping then ever before for everyone else so it makes me uneasy that we will get screwed in the end.

[tabbylvr77]

I feel so mad at JKR for killing Albus, but I am not going to say that I dont think he isnt dead. Did that make sense? I think that Albus isnt dead.. I think it is just a ploy for Voldy to feel secure and try to get at Harry. But one thing that screws with this theory is that the curse Avada Kedavra did hit Dumbledore, and the only known survivor of that curse is Harry.... hhmmm. I am terribly frusturated with JKR cuz she just screwed up that "feeling secure at Hogwarts" feeling for me.. I dont feel the same feelings as I did with the previous books as I did with HBP. I feel very.. dare I say... vulnerable when I read HBP. I felt very secure when I was reading books 1-5, now it seems that anything can happen, and I dont like that feeling..... I seriously didnt think that JKR would do that to such an important person, but once again, we were proven wrong. I am so flustered with this whole thing that I cant even process my thoughts right now... *leaves to go get pencieve*

Rae

[TheGryffindorSeeker]

i'm the same, i was so gutted, when Dumbledore died, i was crying my eyes out (still am lol). but theroy came to me that Dumbledore told Harry to go but, body binded him. Maybe coz Dumbledore knew this was going to happen, and yet let it. He showed Harry him going to die, coz he knew Malfoy was supposed to kill him, but was shocked when Snape came and did it...but then again not really, (even though he pleaded Snape not to) because Harry wouldn't have been free from the curse he was in(no one would find him, he knew and Dumbledore knew he would be freed if the caster released him or was dead.)and again Dumbledore must have know the end due to him drinking that potion...oh i better stop blabbing on, i'm making no sence yet, still a shock to me, but the end got me thinking of a lot of things that Dumbledore must have known was going to happen or wanted to show Harry somethings...but the funeral was nice, i'm glad he was buried at Hogwarts, although it won't be the same without him *cries*

[BlazeFourPaws]

I'm curious as to what that potion actually was. As well as what Albus was seeing. It seems to be something that is clinging to my thoughts. It has to be important.

[amandahleigh]

Side note - One reason I prefer the Snape-to-be-redeemed-somehow theory is because it makes my favorite character, Dumbledore, less fallible and more deserving of his reputation and credibility as the wizard feared most by Voldemort

That's what made me crazy. I felt that Dumbledore is the best wizard of all time, The Only One He Ever Feared, and THAT'S how he died? So easily, just slumped against a wall, and hit with the killing curse, just like THAT? *sigh* So I tell myself to believe he was in charge, he was ready to die, not that he was just begging for his life...

[amandahleigh]

Know what bugs me aboutthe book, too? That since Lord Voldemort wanted the position, they have not been able to keep a DADA teacher more than a year, but I thought Quirrel taught, left for a year and returned? So did JK mean not more than a year in a row? In SS/PS it says:

harry: is he (Quirrel) always that nervous?

hagrid: oh yea. poor bloke. brilliant mind. he was fine while he was studyin' outta books but then he took a year off ter get some firsthand experience... they say he met vampires in the black forest, and there was a nasty bit o' trouble with a hag...

Page 77 I think...


huh?

[mugglemin]

Hey foci! (when you get back from Transylvania...)

If the link between COS and HBP is the diary being a horcrux, why did JK say that HBP was a working title for COS?

Aha! Finally! I gotcha! ;D

(hope no one else has pointed this out already...)

mugs.x

[mugglemin]

Me again,

Does anyone know what page Albus and Snape's argument by the forest is mentioned on? I've got the UK kids version, but a rouhg idea of where is it will do.

Cheers!

mugs.x

[Sensiblyquirky]

page 404-405. Elf Tails chapter, mugglemin

[Alesia]

So I have just reread the last 5 chapters and come to what I believe are going to me my long term conclusions.

A) Albus is really dead. No plan, no switch, just dead. He hadn't told Harry about his hand yet, he hadn't told Harry where he thinks the other 4 horcruxes are, there was more to do and really how to destroy them. Harry destroyed the diary with the tooth of the basilisk (very strong non wizard magic). The ring required the sacrifice of the greatest wizard of the time's hand - the locket and the rest aren't going to be that easy. If Albus had known he was going to die or if there was a plan he would have given Harry hope and hints, nope.... no plan.
B) He knew Draco (and maybe some one else) was coming up the stairs which is why he froze Harry. He knew Harry would try to fight Draco. Albus was trying to do what he succeeded in doing - 1) get Draco to think about what he current path was, 2) get as much information as possible by keeping Draco talking, 3) as a back up Harry was there so even if Albus didn't survive Harry would be there to tell what really happened and lastly 4) protect Harry. Albus says his life is not worth was much as Harry's.
C) Snape really is bad. He tried to be good but couldn't in the end bring himself to believe the Light would win. So he chose to survive. Will he hate himself forever because he killed the only person who ever really cared for him and went out of their way for him, yes absolutely. Is there a possibility Snape will die an honorable death, yes there is. Which brings me to my next conclusion....
D) There is more the reason Albus trusted Snape and yes I do think it has something to do with Lily. I think the worst memory (foci is that yours?) that the worst part of the memory for Snape is how he hurt Lily, not what the Marauders did.
E) The argument is what I am not sure expect maybe Snape's attempt to get out of being Albus's spy before he had to chose. I really think he did know what Draco had to do. It wasn't that hard to figure out. Albus obviously knew. Remember choice of action is an underlying theme.
F) Albus is the secret keeper for he and Minerva's relationship (or they both are together) so Minerva couldn't tell Harry while he was in her office. She had to talk to Albus's portrait first. (and obviously couldn't do it in front of Harry).

G) and this is a fic moment for us (like her return for St Mungo's in OotP) how and who told Minerva Albus was gone? She knew when she came in the hospital wing, she didn't believe but she knew. A transfer of magic perhaps upon the death of the headmaster maybe?

Anyway I think that is where I am going to stay for a while although Albus in hiding theories I am certainly willing to entertain in the hope I am wrong.

Bonnie

[Sensiblyquirky]

hmm the secret keeper idea for their relationship is very interesting, and of course the transfer of magic would be a great idea. Until JKR explicitly states the ship doesn't exist, I'll go on thinking it does so no worries there. Hopefully she just gives us a chance to see Minerva, and learn from her or Albus' portrait.

Christy

[Taylor]

I think snape was *good* just like Lucies Malfoy seemed *good* and benevolent but still the death eater. Now, the grain of truth- while snape hated James and Lily he still owed James a life debt- but, ...

I think Dumbledore knew it was the end for him and he wasn't begging for his life- he was saying, just- please do it, get it done with. With that vow, Snape couldn't have Not killed Albus.

I don't have time to look where it is in book four, but its the grave yard thing that Voldemort is counting who should be there- and he says One is gone, forever- and I think we just read into it that it was snape.

and I was sure that the discription that she put in WAS the half blood prince because they made a big deal of it.
I am not sure about the shippie between filch and Pinchz though it is intreaging one of the scruffiest of the lot gets the neat one in the group, or just because they were single people and it would be the proper thing to do.

The last bit of Toms soul is in Harry.
Wotcher!

And where did the Lupin Tonks thing come out?

Sigh
Taylor

[mugglemin]

Hey, I forget whether or not people have worked out R.A.B. so I shan't say (I had to be told!), but I learned another interesting piece of info today - where the locket was last seen...

Kreacher had it hidden in his little hide away with his photo of Bellatrix. (Someone else pointed this out to me too!)

But this bit's just occoured to me...Mundungus has been pilfering Black property - which is now Harry's property...hhmmm...

I have to confess that foci has convinced me about Snape being good. I shan't go into it now, she's left lots of interesting posts on this subject already, but let me point any lingerers to Snape and Dumbledore's argument by the forest and Snape's reaction (words and looks) to Harry's demand that Snape kill him like he killed Dumbledore. All seems very suggestive to me.

mugs.x

[foci]

You got me, alright. I agree, she intended to give Harry the book in COS, probably to learn about Polyjuice (or more about Snape). I could swear that I mentioned this in my first long email to you though. Whatever, I think I wrote about 20 long emails in 2 days.

[Rikki]

taylor said:

The last bit of Toms soul is in Harry.
Wotcher!
Sigh
Taylor

Uhm... didn't Dumbledore say something that it's difficult to have a living being as a horcrux? Cause it came up that Nagini, the snake, could be one. He said something like that it would be difficult to keep part of your soul within a being that's capable of feeling and thinking - or at least something along these lines.

Love, Rikki

[mugglemin]

Slughorn also tells Riddle that a spell must be cast for the horcrux to work. I don't think Voldy had much time to cast a spell as his AK rebounded off Harry and onto him.

I think, as Dumbledore (bless him) told Harry, some of V's powers transferred to him. I don't think he got a bit of his soul.

[Taylor]

Great bathroom reading material this HBP... please don't laugh, its the only time i am not interupted...
anyway, I was re reading parts of HBP where Harry and hermione are in the library and hermione is trying to make ron jellouse, and Madam Pinze is lurking, and harry speculates about filch and Pinze being together and I remember in Sorcerers stone when Harry went to the restricted section in the library and guess who was there...? Filch...

there is also a part that I found that Snape says to Draco about acting and how he had been doing it for years,

There was a question as to why Snape just didn't kill Harry, and it was that Voldemort has to kill him, and no one else.


This is the prophecy exactly as it is written in OotP

"The one with the power to

the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied Him, Born as the seventh month dies...And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."


Either definition adv] after a negative statement used as an intensive meaning something like `likewise' or `also'; "he isn't stupid, but he isn't exactly a genius either"; "I don't know either"; "if you don't order dessert I won't either"


Neither definition [adv] after a negative statement used to indicate that the next statement is similarly negative; "I was not happy and neither were they"; "just as you would not complain, neither should he"


vanquish [v] come out better in a competition, race, or conflict; "Agassi beat Becker in the tennis championship"; "We beat the competition"; "Harvard defeated Yale in the last football game"

[Alesia]

I am sticking this here largely because the editorial contains huge spoilers in it.

But read this:
www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-jcutler01.shtml

I think I might have just changed camps about Snape. The editorial is strikingly well written and makes some wonderful points.

[foci]

Alesia: Someone made you turn and it wasn't me?

Anyhow, I had a new thought about book 7. What bothered me the most about HP in general, is that JKR made a big issue of prejudices. We heard about the elves, werewolves etc. but no solution is in sight... And what bothers me the most? If Snape is indeed bad, Harry's biggest prejudice turns out to be true.

Cause Harry is as prejudiced against Snape as the DEs are against muggles and muggleborns. What's the moral of the story if Harry can get away with being prejudiced but others can't? If you are on the Light Side your prejudices are bound to turn out true, if not, you are a DE?

However, if Snape is good, and shows his loyalties in the final battle - provided that Harry survives - could mean a real difference. Harry would realise how ALL prejudices are bad, and if he survives, the book (or epilogue) could end with Harry taking the deliberation of elves and co personal and making a difference as the next minister of magic.

[rogue]

Alesia, when you teeter over, I and other Snape-is-OK supporters will put the net out to catch you.

Persuasive article. The Plato's Cave tie-in could also refer to the Locket itself being what Albus thought was a real horcrux to what it revealed later on as a fake.

I think Snape will be transformed like Caliban - monster into monstrous fool, dismissed, possessing nothing - in the end. Whatever he intended to do will pale in comparison with what he will do. JKR will keep him ambiguous to the very end, unless he offs someone else, of course.

[foci]

Alesia: I mailed you this theory (mugglenet) already!

Quote from my mail:

"Read the scene when DD and Harry try to gain entry into the cave. It’s a literary tool, trying to portray what happened between Snape and DD earlier. Cave= Voldie’s DE circle. Payment= price. Price=blood, Albus’ blood, unavoidable as he himself says. Then Harry says that he will do it – but DD refuses, saying that his blood is worth less. Also, DD says that Voldie thinks physical injury is the worst and that he wants to see the enemy weakened."

Not to mention the coward stuff etc. Anyhow, I'm glad you seem to be convinced, no matter to whom the honors go to.

And I still maintain that with regards to book 7 we should be asking "Why is Harry's and Snape's life more valuable than DD's?" I think you know now why I think this.

[Taylor]

I skipped over answering a part here about the connection between the books and what JK said about the first beginning chapter almost ended up in the other book, it was when the were popping in on the muggle minister and saying Hello, we are the Ministers of Magic, yes magic exisits, and we don't really want to bother you at all, we will mind our own buisness and when something horrid happens we will let you know. And it would have worked with all the times that fudge kept getting things wrong, with Voldemort and the first wave and then with Sirius black escaping, what made it funny was that - well, it showed how - weak and how much of a nitwit they really were (fudge, not the Minister.)

I have been reading more of the book, bits and pieces as it is almost impossible to open the same part of the book at a diffierent time at random. i don't think this current MOM will last long.

You realize with the unbreakable vow, if something happens to draco, Severus will die.

I also figured out the grave yard connection with Severus saying to Harry DONT CALL ME COWARD...
Voldemort refers to the people who are missing, two are dead, one still in prison, one who was responsible for Harry being there, and one whome he feard was lost to him forever, and one whom he believed was too much of a coward to return,,,

the durmstrong headmaster is the one whom Voldemort though was lost to him forever, I had thought he was the coward, but voldemort was refering to Snape as the coward.

Any time JK refers to something seveal times it is a clue, if it is repeated and they change the subject, it is part of the plot (or something like that)

Why would Snape be called a coward? because he refused to do something.

I feel very sorry for snape.

then again, they will be needing ether a new potions teacher or a new DADA teacher,or both.
oh, and a new transfigurations teacher... and a new divinations teacher,,, and probably a new charms teacher...

Monster.com anyone??

Taylor

[Claire]

And what if Dumbledore's not really dead, but instead is hiding somewhere, waiting for the right moment to help Harry defeat Voldemort. Maybe he and Snape had some hidden agenda. Snape could have faked Dumbledore's death unbeknown to Minerva and the other Order members. In the past books it is said that the only wizard Voldemort ever feared was Dumbledore. Dumbledore dead = Voldemort may be free to conquer the whole wizarding world, despite Harry's attempt to stop him. After all, to him Harry is a teen wizard who is powerful, but not as powerful as Dumbledore.
What do ya guys think?
Claire

[foci]

As much as it pains me to say this, Albus is dead, I'm certain of this. Although there is a general fic in which he and Aberforth are twins and Aberforth impersonates Albus when he is away from school, hunting Voldie. But I'm 100% sure that he and Snape didn't switch places, there is no way that Albus would have lost his temper and hexed Harry after the coward comment.