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Post by Taylor on Jul 16, 2005 7:48:30 GMT -5
Ok, Last night, at the HBP party a person was walking around with a huge sign that said.
"Dumbledore Dies."
It was a pretty cool event, and it impressed my nieces- They were giving away green braclets with the date, and posters and HP glasses. They had a costume contest and there was a baby Norbert, and Moaning Myrtal- (great costumes btw) and even a few McGonagals walking around- The girls got the death mark put on their arms with paint, and we watched the first movie over and over again.
There was a recording of someone speaking, we think it was JK , but the PA system wasn't working and it was hard to hear... and at 12:14 I purchased three books for under 58$... (plus the frappachinos )
So, I was wondering how they knew, unless they peaked... but still
And if you got to the end of the book... well, His Patronus is a Phonix.
Will there be a 7th yr? Yes, JK has said that one of the students stays behind to teach.
Ginny and Harry are an item...
Snape is bound to do something that we won't know until the last book if he HAD to do it or WANTED to do it.
I am going to re read the book. I have had NO SLEEP since yesterday, and I have to go to work, but I need to go back and get the clues out now. Total reading time, 5 hrs 43 min.
Taylor.
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Post by Jaya on Jul 16, 2005 10:02:44 GMT -5
Okay... so Dumbledore is gone...
But....
is he really?
I can't help but wonder....
Why do I think this....
First of all... I am having a lot of difficulty believing that Dumbledore was so completely wrong about Snape... when the Black sisters visit Snape.... they never say what Draco's task is... clever plot device? Or Snape's attempt to find out so that he can pass the information to Dumbledore....
Then there is the funeral... the patronus... it is a phoenix... and what happens to the phoenix when it dies? It rises again....
Also... I didn't detect any great show of emotion from McGonagall... and since we all know that they are an item and she has been known to show hints of emotion on other occasions.... Plus, the toad was at the funeral and Minerva didn't even hex her... she has to be in on the plan...
These are my initial thoughts.... anyone else have any?
Jaya
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Post by Alesia on Jul 16, 2005 10:38:02 GMT -5
Jaya - All I can say is I hope you are right. I am still having issues that she actually did it.
I have to admit, I couldn't stand it and skipped to the last two chapters after reading the first one. I am currently on my way back through now.
Hey I think R.A.B. might be Regulus Black! Yea I know he is dead, JK said so, but couldn't he have gotten the horcux before Voldy had him killed in 1980? Sirius did say he had tried to leave the Death Easters. What do you think? I can't find his middle initial in OotP or on the Lexicon.
And was this like the shippiest book ever?
We got: Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Bill/Fleur, Remus/Tonks, a glimpse at what might be Snape/Narcissa.
I am still sad, and even sadder with the thought it will probably be 2 years before we know for sure. I see a lot of Angst fics in our future.
Bonnie
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Post by Herzele on Jul 16, 2005 13:10:54 GMT -5
Same here. I so hope you all are right and he somehow comes back ! I can't believe Harry has no mentor anymore for the rest of his 'mission' to kill Voldemort ... And I also can't believe that Albus judged Snape so wrong ...
And the fact that Min didn't do anything to Dolores just has to mean something ...
You know, I somehow thought about Regulus, too, when I saw those initials. It would be strange, but I somehow think it it someone we already know ... And since I couldn't think of anyone else with those initials ...
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Post by BlazeFourPaws on Jul 16, 2005 14:43:22 GMT -5
Something is up with the initials and how Snape turned psycho evil git. I also think that Dumbledore knew something more then he said. Poor Min though.
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Post by amandahleigh on Jul 16, 2005 16:04:10 GMT -5
All I could think of were the initials Regulas A. Black.... ya never know! ... ooh, I just read that Iam not the first one to think that! lol! Great minds....  omg I SOBBED at the end! My three favorite characters are Minerva, Albus and Snape, and with one dead and one in the doghouse... I keep hoping that Snape is really a good guy... and that the whole 'death' thing in chapter, er, 27 was it? I hope it was JK's idea of a sick, sick joke. Maybe?  oy. |
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redfive86
First-year Student
Love CTY, love the Passionfruit!
Posts: 5
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Post by redfive86 on Jul 16, 2005 16:06:41 GMT -5
It's all whack and all, but what I want to know is... what'll happen to the fandom now?
vv
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Post by Ginger Newts on Jul 16, 2005 16:43:11 GMT -5
Jaya, I have to admit to sharing some of your suspicions. I just can't believe it would all be over like that, it was too quiet, too easy. I'm pretty upset about a whole lot of things right now so I won't write a lot, but I will say that I cried steadily through the last hundred pages or so of the book. It's just so...ARGH!
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Post by Jaya on Jul 16, 2005 16:44:57 GMT -5
Can't speak for the others but as for me... I don't give a rip... most of my stories are pre book six anyway... the epic i've got 120 pages written on will be the most affected... and I'll be honest... I may just continue on and completely ignore book 6...
In the early 90's there was a show on television called seaQuest. Roy Scheider played Captain Nathan Bridger and Stephanie Beacham played CMO Kristin Westphalen... the chemistry between these two was obvious... By the end of the first season fans even got to see some major snogging between the two (and it was horizontal, even though they were still wearing most of their clothes....). But TPTB (idiots) moved the production to Florida causing Stephanie Beacham to leave. They replaced her with an obvious T&A ploy in the guise of a much younger female doctor and tried to force Bridger into a relationship with her. It SOOOOO didn't work! Even Roy Scheider complained in an interview...
So why did I share this story? Just to say that, as far as I'm concerned in my seaQuest fanfic, season two and three NEVER HAPPENED! If I did it there I can ignore it for Albus and Minerva as well...
Besides... Until we see book seven I'm holding out that Albus isn't truly gone... Somehow... in some form... he is still around. I refuse to accept that this brilliant wizard could have been so completely wrong about Snape that he didn't know something was up! Especially with Harry warning him! Dumbledore wouldn't have taken this lightly... especially with the problems with Harry last year.... I believe there was a plan in place (Minerva being neck deep in it) to lull Voldy into a false sense of security...
And if book seven proves me wrong.... I'll ignore it too!!!
Yes... I am mental! ;D (shut up, tay!)
Jaya
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Post by idealrain on Jul 16, 2005 17:13:42 GMT -5
So......we're just going IGNORE the last couple of pages on the board, right? ok then i'm going into my delusions now......
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Post by Herzele on Jul 16, 2005 17:43:12 GMT -5
I'd say we are ... *repeating "It's not true" over and over again to myself*
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Post by Jaya on Jul 16, 2005 18:23:19 GMT -5
Ignorance is bliss!
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Post by foci on Jul 16, 2005 18:29:38 GMT -5
I was a Sirius fan until OotP came out so I know a bit about what we are all going through at the moment. We'll be in denial for months, even a year, or longer. Then, slowly, we will see our ship and Albus in a new light, and we will appreciate fanfiction for other reasons than we did pre-HBP and now (right after HBP).
I wish I could agree with Jaya about Albus, but - at the moment (1AM local time) I can't. There was so little reaction from Minerva, they didn't look like as if they were about to choose another leader of the Order. Maybe - JKR didn't want to give away more before book7. I think Albus is either dead or he is said second person who managed to halve his soul.
But... we have to remember. HP is well - no matter how it means something else to us - is about Harry Potter. Not Albus Dumbledore, not Minerva McGonagall and not Severus Snape. It will be the three kids stealing the spotlight in the next book, at least that's what the last chapter suggests.
I thought it weird that JKR just blew up all the structure for her books - how can Harry search and find the remaining Horncruxes (sp?) if he is at Hogwarts? But if he isn't at Hogwarts, what happens then?
And this whole splitting up the soul stuff is very confusing! I mean - think about it. Okay, Harry has to find 6 other (now fewer) items that contain Voldie's soul. But Albus himself said that one part of his soul is in his body. Why not kill real-Voldie first and then find the rest of his soul without the DEs rallying around? This question won't leave me alone since we learned about this process. Either we aren't told a huge secret (I always thought that one part of Voldie's soul was in Harry, that's why he shouldn't kill him)... or... or what?
And I still cannot get over Minerva's behaviour in the last chapters. Shut down the school? Will she help Harry find the rest of the Horncruxes then?
Probably because Albus trusted him, I still think that Snape is good - and that he loved Lily. But that Unbreakable Vow is so confusing. Snape had to kill Albus or he would have died. Did Albus know this (the book suggests he didn't - I mean, if he knew that it's either Draco or Snape... )? Does this mean that Snape's and Harry's life is worthier than his was? How is Snape relevant to the plot as a good guy if he acted as a DE in HBP? I don't see how we will meet him sooner than at a big fight over one of the Horncruxes.
The book had a lot of wonderful stuff - not just romance (hehehe, so good to see the Tonks/Lupin pairing) but humour too... but I don't see how the adults will fit into Book 7. And as Albus, Minerva and Severus are my favourites, I'd rather read about them then three teenagers chasing five parts of Voldie's soul.
By the by RAB is 100% Regulus Black. But considering that it took Harry the whole book to discover that his Potions book belonged to Snape (which was probably clear to everyone straightaway), I don't hold my breath for a quick realisation.
Things are all the more confusing because we got so many things right - like Remus and Tonks.
And a personal thought: I read the book in 6,5 hours. Not bad for a non-native speaker, huh? Considering that OotP took me 3 days two years ago, I improved beyond my wildest dreams.
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Post by amandahleigh on Jul 16, 2005 18:51:22 GMT -5
I was thinking, and this is kinda nuts, in book two we learn that Harr is a true Gryffindor. Maybe he's really in some way a descendent/heir of Gryffindor, and maybe when Voldemort left the scar and a piece of himself, maybe by some change he literally left a piece of himself, and somehow Harry is/holds the sixth part, the part that 'is' something of Gryffindors?
Probably not likely (and I explained my "theory" terribly... but I think it mighgt make an interesting fanfic! I'll have to work on it...when I get over my albus'-death-induced-depression!)
AL
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Post by TabbyMin on Jul 16, 2005 19:09:34 GMT -5
I just finished the book. I, for one, am totally ignoring any events related to the death, dying, or otherwise blackened hand of Albus Dumbledore. Yes, I am perfectly calm, and no, I am NOT insane. To the way Minerva Acted in the last chappie, I say, she was in complete and utter shock. -tabby
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Post by foci on Jul 16, 2005 19:25:24 GMT -5
I figured out the Snape stuff!
I still think he is a good guy and I think he had no idea what he was doing when he killed Albus. Read the second chapter again - he was trying to get information from Bella and Narcissa - but he didn't get it.
Bella is an Occlumens (Draco told us so) so he wouldn't have been able to read Narcissa's mind, Bella surely would have picked up on that. Then, when the Unbreakable Vow offer came up - it was a turning point. If he does it, Bella won't suspect him, if doesn't - he is dead. I guess his orders were to stay within the DE circles at all costs - so he agreed (also - him staying alive might be more crucial than Albus, and they may have discussed this) to perform a Charm without actually knowing what Draco agreed to do!!!
When he questioned Draco at Christmas - it's fairly obvious that he still doesn't know what's going on, Draco is now an Occlumens, he can't perform Legilimency on him. We don't know how the Charm works, but it could have been activated (and forcing him to kill Albus as a sort of Imperio) when Draco stood aside, when Draco almost switched sides. In the Draco-Albus conversation, Draco doesn't say anything to contradict this - read that part again, when he repeats Snape's questions, the guy had still no idea until he cast the spell.
Why did he escape? He became involved on the Dark Side, if stayed behind, everything would had been in vain.
And why do I think that he is a good guy? He could have expelled Harry for that blood spell (Sectusempra? sp?) he put on Draco - but he didn't. He probably hates Harry even more now that he had to kill Albus to protect him.
TabbyMin - I'm perfectly buying your shock theory. And I'm off to bed now. It's 2.30AM.
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Post by BlazeFourPaws on Jul 16, 2005 19:49:49 GMT -5
Okay read it through a second time and still am thinking that our adult characters are acting most oddly. I dont think Snape told Albus about the curse Harry did because that would of given away that the Half Blood Prince had surfaced again. Yes Albus will resurface somehow a phoenix perhaps and there is more then just gryffindor's sword. The sorting hat was his too also i think maybe something at Godric's Hollow. Minerva closing the school means something as well. If it stays closed. Something else is bugging me. Why would Voldemort allow a vicious creature like a werewolf who fancies children into the Deatheaters and is Fenrir marked? Very odd that. I think Severus had to kill Dumbledore but I dont think he wanted to and I think there is a plan going on. I hope. I like brooding spy for the light Severus. $16 for book $6 for coffee and biscuit 36 hours without sleep Reading Harry Potter through twice in under 12 hours= Priceless
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Post by TabbyMin on Jul 16, 2005 20:12:15 GMT -5
Before I read the book I had this nagging feeling like it was going to be him or something. Then all of the sudden, I write this one chapter for a new fic I'm going to rewrite, and (in the fic) I kill him off to! I totally feel like I'm missing something here or read the book in fast-forward. The way I see Snape, I get that he's 'gone to the dark side' and all but, it's unreal. My sis is a Hg/SS shipper and she can't read the book till August but, hey, what if when Dumbledore said 'Severus... Please' he really wanted him to kill him? Wow- didn't someone already say that here? K. I'm being a blonde but could some one write a fluffy beautiful fic-with nothing to do with him dying!!! I'm in a terrible mood now. I think I'm going to cry...*stawks off and sobs* Why did he have to go? Did he even die?- excuse me for my rambling. -tabby
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Post by Jaya on Jul 16, 2005 20:15:17 GMT -5
$16 for book $6 for coffee and biscuit 36 hours without sleep Reading Harry Potter through twice in under 12 hours= Priceless Oh geez... I am ROTFLMAO!!!! And let me say how glad I am to have found this list and to know that there are other people who are just as insane as I am!!! |
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Post by Happy Reader on Jul 16, 2005 20:27:18 GMT -5
...
I dunno about you guys, but I'm still gonna be 'Dumbledore's gal through and through...' What did strike me odd was Albus's pleading to Severus. To me, he genuinely seemed to be begging for his life. And Snape's reaction, the 'hatred' displayed on his face? Was it all for show for the Death Eaters present or has Snape really hated Albus all these years? Hmmn...
Oh well, am still an MMADer at heart.
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Post by amandahleigh on Jul 16, 2005 21:19:47 GMT -5
Plus, he told Harry the story of what happened to his hand was for another time, and he never really went into what happened, and we NEED to know, therefore, he can't be gone. He needs to come back and explain the hand and figure out all seven Horcruxes before he can up-and-die!
What makes me so angry is that it wasn't even Voldemort who killed him. Just Snape. Snape?! What's up with that?! *sigh*
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Graciela
First-year Student
Big Brother is always watching!!!!
Posts: 4
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Post by Graciela on Jul 16, 2005 21:28:41 GMT -5
I was wondering why Harry didn't tell McGonagall about the Hex things(can't spell them)? Was it that he didn't trust her or was it that he was taking everything Dumbledore said to heart.
Also I don't think that Minerva would let her emotions allow her to not think of her post. Many times in the books she has turned her head and had a sniffle but that is all. Even Dumbledore, when Diggory died and when all these other calamities around him happen, he was strong. I think that McGonagall realized that no matter how much she was hurting inside being strong and sorting out the problems was what Dumbledore would have wanted.
I also think that she was curt with Harry because her whole sense of stability had been altered and everything seems to have been cause of him. She was probably so shaken that Dumbledore had allowed Severus to teach and turned at present time to be traitor and Dumbledore never gave his reasons.
I think that she would have wished Dumbledore to be more open with her. Now she is basically left in the dark even though she was a Depty Headmistress.
Note: even though this may sound anti-shipperish I am a shipper but I believe that they had a very close relationship, even though Dumbledore didn't want her to be burdened with things he was going to do. I don't think that he could have risked his life some many times if he had to tell her what he was doing.
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Post by Jaya on Jul 16, 2005 21:32:01 GMT -5
Am going out on a limb here... Albus never really specified what he was pleading for... He only said "Severus..." and "Severus, please...". Perhaps he was pleading with Snape to follow through with their plan and kill him... Perhaps the look on Snape's face was hatred and revulsion at Voldy and at himself at having to kill Dumbledore (Okay, pseudokill... because he isn't really gone...)
When Harry went after Snape... Snape didn't attack Harry... he simply countered Harry's curses... at least until Harry called him a coward... and the other DE's were wanting to kill Harry... but Snape stopped them...
I can't believe this! I can't believe that I am defending SNAPE!!! (Shakes head ruefully)
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Post by Happy Reader on Jul 16, 2005 22:25:51 GMT -5
Hey Jaya, after reading your last post it makes that scene sorta make sense. Albus's psuedo-death might have been a plan to guarantee Snape's allegiance with the U-NO-POO (oh, man that made me laugh!).
Wonder how the other portraits in the Headmaster's office will react to their newest tenant? And the phoenix rising from the white tomb seems like a telling sign; just as someone else already mentioned in the thread, Albus just may rise again. I'm getting a plot bunny of a dark red phoenix with bright blue eyes offering its companionship to Minerva soon after the events of HBP...
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Post by Jaya on Jul 16, 2005 22:28:08 GMT -5
as headmistress she'll possibly need the help and comfort of her own phoenix....
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Post by rogueinker on Jul 16, 2005 22:46:54 GMT -5
Only way to stave off depression methinks is to vent. None of my stories are canon so I will simply ignore the last 2-3 chapters. Here's my 2 cents.
Minerva’s Reaction - I look at the way she had to steel herself before looking at Albus’ portrait as her true reaction. Her almost fainting at the infirmary after she finds out about Snape shows how unbalanced she was and how thin her control was then. I think she was shocked yet exerting iron will. After all, her primary responsibility was to the school before any personal feelings she may have. She had to stay outwardly in control as she had the chaos to settle and face the Ministry delegation coming.
Minerva Being in the Dark - Believe me (having been on that level), executives in an organization, even the #2, aren’t always privy to everything. It’s not always advisable. Ignorance on that level is called “plausible deniability.” If you’re caught on a lie or a misspeak, you can plead ignorance with complete honesty. Afterwards, you beat senseless the person who kept you in the dark. I think Dumbledore may have wanted to make her less of a target so he didn’t share some things. He kept saying that most of what he knew was conjecture not actual fact or second hand. Her asking Harry about what occurred in the office does not imply that she did not know about the horcruxes, only that she didn’t know where Dumbledore went. Remember, Albus had just come back late and decided then and there to go to the cave. There wasn’t time to let Minerva know. Perhaps, he thought he would inform her after they came back.
Harry Leaving Hogwarts - I think not. Albus made a big deal about the sword in his office being the last heirloom of Godric Gryffindor. So Voldemort’s is going to want it. I don’t see it leaving Hogwarts. Plus, there is the heirloom of Ravenclaw which is still to be determined. I can’t help thinking that the Chamber of Secrets is going to come back. What a great hiding place! Could it be the reason he was trying to get a post at the school? Since Voldemort seems to like leaving horcruxes in places he’s been then why not at the old Riddle place? Or Godric's Hollow?
Snape - When Snape entered the office all action halted. Who’s to say that Snape wouldn’t have fought Fenrir and Amycus? Dumbledore didn’t give him much choice. It strikes me that Dumbledore had absolute control of that situation. He knew how weak he was with the hand injury, the horrendous potion and having to light the fire against the Fenris. Another poster mentioned that Dumbledore wanted Snape to think of the plan. By saying “Severus ... please.” he did just that. In Ch 2, Bellatrix was vocal about her mistrust of Snape. So, his position isn’t very stable. By his actions, Snape is now virtually untouchable in the DE inner circle. Snape’s revulsion could have been his own revulsion of having to do what he had to do. Besides, if anyone but Snape killed him, that person would have had bragging rights for eternity, I think that would not have made Dumbledore very happy. I like to think that they must have had some brief mental conversation right before. I would love to know more about their argument in the forest. Plus, Barty Crouch Jr saw Snape and McGonagall in the foe glass so was Snape light then and dark now? Hmmm.
DADA Position - I think Voldemort cursed that position like “If I can’t have it, no one will.” Dumbledore admitted no one has lasted more than a year since. Perhaps, Snape was denied because Dumbledore needed him alive or around. Snape’s reply to the Black sisters seemed too smooth and practiced.
Unbreakable Vow - I think Snape told Dumbledore what happened with Narcissa - D’s chat with Draco seemed to hint at that. The vow tied his hands because he promised 2 things - protect Draco AND complete Draco’s task. Dumbledore let him do that and so saved his life. Now, Snape owes Dumbledore one. That one favor now goes to Harry. Perhaps, Snape realizing that he now owes one is the reason for his expression right before the AK. Whether he wants to or he’s going to have to help Harry at least once. Petigrew also owes Harry one favor, too.
Voldemort's Souls - I think Harry has to destroy the externally stored souls so when he does kill Voldemort, Voldemort won't have a "backup" plan. His body will die once and for all because there would be no external souls keeping him in this world.
Story Ideas:
- There was a gap of time from the time that Harry passed Minerva in the hallway to the time that he sees her again in the infirmary. What happened with Minerva during that time?
- The tiny gap of time before she met the Ministry contingent and everyone else left the office. Did she wake Albus’ portrait?
- Though I do think he’s gone in the real sense, Albus is on a portrait and so his presence is not gone. Plus, he must have portraits everywhere so he can get around.
- Minerva running the “team” to find Snape with an extra personal motivation - dark, vigilante Minerva, anyone?
- Where was Aberforth during the funeral? Did not see his name only a reference to the bar man at the Hogs Head. Is Aberforth the barman in canon?
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Post by TabbyMin on Jul 16, 2005 23:46:02 GMT -5
Hmmm, all very interesting. After I calmed down for a bit, I told my mom what happened to Dumbledore. She was a little upset but that's mom for ya. She also suggested an idea, if any of you are willing: Rewrite, or half-way rewrite the book, (or chapters in the book) so that it suits us fine and have it exactly tell the story with input of our own here and there, such as Dumbledore dying or parts with the funeral. Then, the brilliance of her idea shines through, (of course it could also be the evil...) to send a copy of the completed work to J.K. as a... suggestion. Any opinions? -tabby
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Post by Rikki on Jul 17, 2005 3:13:24 GMT -5
Well, I have to admit I'm a little torn at the moment. I can't really understand what JKR was aiming at with making Dumbledore die. I mean, Severus changed sides very suddenly. The whole chapter with Narcissa and Bellatrix was rather fishy if you ask me. Plus I can't believe that Dumbledore, who is regarded as the greatest wizard of his time, would let himself be fooled by Severus. I also agree that the reason, why Albus trusted Snape, McGonagall and Harry gave wasn't really convincing. So there just has to be something more to it. But what I find most disturbing is... well, kind of the overall message of the book as it stands now. Isn't it something like "Trust people and believe in their goodness, and you'll get killed"? I mean, hello, this is a book for kids after all. And the phoenix at the funeral... don't know but I guess there's something more to it too. But on the other hand I have to agree with Kandice too... the body-binding spell disappearing after Albus' so-called death... Rather suspicious. I'm soo glad you people agree with me that the book was... well, a bit weird at parts. I drove my mum nuts by wanting to talk about the story - and she hadn't even read the book. Love, Rikki |
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Post by Lady Lavendar on Jul 17, 2005 4:11:04 GMT -5
I have to agree with some of you guys about Snape. I think he killed Dumbledore to save his own skin, and to save Harry (for now) because of Dumbledore's plea. As for Minerva.... I thought her reaction about his death would have been a little more dramatic because if my best died i would have been in hysterics. But then again she had to be strong for the school. I'm glad that they closed the school though.
Over all I thought that the book was well... different. It wasn't what I expected it to be. I already known that it was going to be Dumbledore who was going to die because it had to be a person who played a major role in Harry's life.
LL
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Post by angeldust on Jul 17, 2005 5:31:01 GMT -5
humm well i spent a lot of last night crying and thinking  (And could that Rufus be any more of T**T!!!) I agree there just something... not right about his death and well i'm already plotting a fic which shows what he saw when drinking the potion and how he's not dead mwhahahaha!!!! AD/MM FOREVER!!!!!!!!!! And i also agree which how many ships were in this book omg!!! Harry/Ginny Hermione/Ron Sevie/nercissa Bella/Voldie Tonks/Lupin (my personal fav squee) Bill/Fluer I'm sure there are so many shippers out there totaly distraught |
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(And could that Rufus be any more of T**T!!!) I agree there just something... not right about his death and well i'm already plotting a fic which shows what he saw when drinking the potion and how he's not dead mwhahahaha!!!! 