Names

[beMMADfabulous]

Anyone notice during the books that Albus and Minerva go back and forth calling each other by either their first or last names? In one line, they may call each other by their first name, but in the next line they may call each other by their last. Does anyone know the reason for that? I've thought that maybe it's the difference between a professional conversation and a private one, but the names are often so interchanged that it shouldn't be because of conversation. I'm not sure if I'm making sense here, but this is something I've always wondered if there was an actual reason or, if not, what everyone thought the reason may be.

[tanja]

well, in the german books, no matter which name is used, it´s always informal... it´s always "Sie", not a personal "du"...it the english versions it´s always a "you", which makes it easier to believe that they are more "private"...ok, does that make any sense at all

[ravenhaired]

Well, in school, no matter how personal teachers get (too teachers in my previous school were dating and eventually married) they always called each other by 'Miss So-and-So', 'Mr Whats-his-name', to maintain the professionalism that was expected of them.

We've always only seen it from Harry's point-of-view and I would say those times that they call each other by their first names are just breaks with the formality that they have to maintain in front of pupils.

Hope that made sense.

[childminerva]

I'll need to check this later but I'm almost certain that Albus has only used 'Minerva' a few times while Minerva uses his first name more often. I'd thought about this before...and looked through the books to see if how they addressed one another varied depending on who they were around. From what I saw it doesn't seem to matter who is present; after all, they were alone in the first chapter of book one and he called her Professor McGonagall.
*childminerva runs upstairs to check her books*
In the second book when they bring Colin Creevy to the hospital ward, they each use each others first names. In the fifth book he calls her Minerva in front of the people from the Ministry before he flees. That still doesn't explain why he didn't call her Minerva when it was just the two of them in book one.

[beMMADfabulous]

childminerva said:

That still doesn't explain why he didn't call her Minerva when it was just the two of them in book one.

Exactly what I was thinking. Meanwhile, it seems to me that the movie seems to play up the MMAD parts, and I'm very grateful for that.

[ravenhaired]

Ah well. Then I am out of ideas

[EloquentPhoenix]

My personal theory is that they are obviously cautious, they call each other their professional names in public, like at the beginning of PS/SS, but she slips up and calls him Albus when she finds out about Lily and James! I always thought that obviously anyone could have been listening, so that's why they do it.

Then in CoS in the hot chocolate scene she calls him Albus, he never addresses her as such, I think they feel safe enough to relax in Hogwarts

Of course that culd be an indication that they aren't together, but just want to be, it's hard to explain.

(Shameless plug - After friday I'm seriously considering exploring their cannon relationship through an editorial, because I want to improve my fanfiction as in writing in character, so when I have longer to explain what I mean about why they call each other what they do in said editorial I might make more sense)

[beMMADfabulous]

I really like that theory, EloquentPhoenix! It made me realize something when you said they feel more at ease at Hogwarts... Maybe they're attempting to protect each other from Voldemort and the Death Eaters by hiding their relationship.

;D Some epiphany. lol I should've thought of that earlier.

[EloquentPhoenix]

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I'm the rest of the Pofessors know, therefore they can call each other Albus and Minerva, for whatever reason.

Like in PoA when Minerva calls Madame Pomfrey Poppy, there's obviously going to be friendship between the staff, they live with each other for the better part of every year.

But Albus cals Minerva 'My dear Professor' I think it obviously means more

Well of course I would do I suppose, we all would. It's hard being biased.

[beMMADfabulous]

You're going to post your editorial on their relationship here, right? I would really like to read it.

Yes, it is hard being biased. I think good reason to be, though. ;D Do you remember specifically where he calls her "My dear Professor?" I think that's one of the lines I've been looking for, and I don't know where it is.

[EloquentPhoenix]

I think that it is in PS/SS at the beginning on Privet Drive. *Checks* yes.

'"My Dear Professor I'm sure... etc."' It's page 14 in PS paperback.

And yes, yes of course I will, I'm going to enjoy it, might post it in parts. We'll see how it works out but yes I will post it.

[angeldust]

It's just a very very bad cover up!!! Trying to act professional or perhaps they get turned on with the whole 'Professor' thing one never knows

[beMMADfabulous]

angeldust said:

It's just a very very bad cover up!!! Trying to act professional or perhaps they get turned on with the whole 'Professor' thing one never knows

Rofl! ;D

Thanks for checking that for me, EloquentPhoenix. I can't wait to read your editorial.

[Alesia]

Actually Foci and I talked about this right after HBP came out. I think the only Minerva calls him Albus is in PS/SS in chapter 1 and the hospital scene in CoS. I don't think she calls him Albus in OoP in the office scene nor the hospital scene in GoF. Lucius calls him Albus in CoS in Haggard's hunt (I think, or in his office at the end) and Molly calls him Albus in OoP but I think that is it.

I would really love to see the article. I would love to see someone spend sometime on their canon scenes. Let me know if you need help.

A

[EloquentPhoenix]

Thanks, I will, I'm starting this evening, but finding all of the scenes is the first challenge. I never quite realised how much there is to this, but I'm going to enjoy it.

[avadagypsy]

Yay! Cant wait to read it - sounds very interesting! Good luck!

[MrCoolio]

bemmadfabulous said:

I really like that theory, EloquentPhoenix! It made me realize something when you said they feel more at ease at Hogwarts... Maybe they're attempting to protect each other from Voldemort and the Death Eaters by hiding their relationship.

;D Some epiphany. lol I should've thought of that earlier.

that makes complete sense! hopefully there are more clues suggesting that in book 7.

[Ashlynn Minerva Rose]

yea whenever i read i notice that 2 but i also notice that they only use their first name's when they're around other professors && not the students (at least, that's what they think). whenever they use their last names, it's always around students.

[nemi]

[ramble]

I actually think their name change is quite romantic. An overall explanation is quite hard so I'll use snippets from the books.. mainly PS/SS chapter 1, which is their main & longest scene.

I don't have the book with me (I lost books 1-3 around the start of 2005), but a loong time ago, before HBP (July 04, precisely) I wrote a version of Harry's sixth year. It's deleted now, but I still have various files from it including the prologue, which retells the first chapter of PS/SS, only it actually tells it from Albus and Minerva's POVs rather than from an onlooker's.

This was written by a yours truly with the view that Albus and Minerva had experienced seemingly unrequited feelings for 50 years. I have since changed my overall opinion of their relationship (drastically, I won't go into that) but the comments underneath apply either way. I actually found this worth digging out to see how I portrayed them before I found this (fabulous) forum. It says, in the rather blunt way of writing that I used back in 2004:

“How did you know it was me?” Minerva asked.

“My dear Professor, I’ve never seen a cat sit so stiffly.”

He didn’t want to call her by her given name, nor did she want to use his, because then they would probably both end up crying on each other’s shoulders – although they didn’t know that the other was thinking the exact same thing, so decided to call each other something else.

When they first arrive, Albus and Minerva are probably a little stiff. The rumours are going round and there isn't enough time for them to talk so they're probably feeling professional. Albus seems to be trying to maintain a person-in-charge front but reaches out to her by calling her 'my dear Professor' in a slightly playful way.

Minerva threw a sharp, sideways glance at him, as though hoping he would tell her something, but he didn’t take the hint or say anything, so she continued. “A fine thing it would be if, on the very day You-Know-Who seems to have disappeared at last, the Muggles found out about us all. I suppose he really has gone, Dumbledore?”

Albus couldn’t really blame her for not calling him Albus, as he wasn’t calling her Minerva. “It certainly seems so,” he answered. “We have much to be thankful for. Would you care for a sherbet lemon?”

Has he gone mad? Minerva asked herself. No, he already was… “A what?”

“A sherbet lemon,” he repeated, as though it was obvious. “They’re a kind of Muggle sweet I’m rather fond of.”

For crying out loud, THIS has happened and he’s STILL thinking about candy? she thought. “No, thank you,” she said coldly. It wasn’t the moment for sherbet lemons. “As I say, even if You-Know-Who has gone – ”

Minerva says 'Dumbledore' in a professional way. She is not addressing him as her friend, she is addressing him as someone who holds a position of high authority in the wizarding world, someone who would know the answers to her questions. She is addressing him as his status - the way the Golden Trio in their first and second year refer to 'Dumbledore' in a manner that suggests 'the headmaster and someone you only see if you're in big trouble or you've won a big award', 'McGonagall' in a manner that suggests 'strict Transfiguration teacher and person to take queries to' et al.

Albus bowed his head. Minerva gasped. “Lily and James… I can’t believe it… I didn’t want to believe it… Oh, Albus…” This was the first time she had used his first name, for, being upset, she couldn’t control her actions so much.

When Minerva is upset, she calls him 'Albus'. This is because she needs comforting and here is looking to him as someone she is close to. Albus in fact only pats her on the back, but it's likely he's feeling awkward.

“You don’t mean – you can’t mean the people who live here?” Minerva cried, jumping to her feet and pointing at number four. She remembered to call Albus ‘Dumbledore’, in her shock. “Dumbledore – you can’t. I’ve been watching them all day. You couldn’t find two people who are less like us. And they’ve got this son – I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets. Harry Potter come and live here!”

“It’s the best place for him,” said Albus firmly. “His aunt and uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he’s older. I’ve written them a letter?”

“A letter?” repeated Minerva faintly, sitting back down on the wall. “Really, Dumbledore, you think you can explain all this in a letter? These people will never understand him! He’ll be famous – a legend – I wouldn’t be surprised if today was known as Harry Potter Day in future – there will be books written about Harry – every child in our world will know his name!”

Minerva now reverts to Dumbledore as she is angry with his decision. She is again reminding him that he is the one permitted to make it and is citing her views to him as the person whose response to her opinion can change the outcome of the situation she is discussing. To me, Minerva seems to change which variation of his name she uses depending on the context and how she is addressing him, eg:

• In the fourth film, she said to Moody when he had turned Draco into a ferret, 'Surely Dumbledore told you that?' with 'Dumbledore' as Moody's boss and not 'Albus' as Moody's friend.
  
• In the second book, in the hospital wing they say 'If Albus hadn't been on the way downstairs for hot chocolate' and 'Minerva found him on the stairs' with 'Albus' and 'Minerva' as friend/lover and not 'Dumbledore' and 'Professor McGonagall' as Headmaster and Deputy.
  
• In the second film when she takes Harry to the gargoyle, she says 'Professor Dumbledore will be waiting for you' with Professor Dumbledore as the headmaster, the person whose hands Harry's fate rests in.
  
• In the fourth book, she says (with he being Fudge), 'I told him you wouldn't agree, Dumbledore!' in a way that suggests she is deliberately saying Dumbledore to suggest to Fudge that he was defying the opinion of the greatest wizard in the world.
  

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

So yes, overall I think they address each other such for safety, and for the occasion - Minerva does seem the brisk, fiery type to address him as Dumbledore in situations where she is his Deputy, and I don't think she'd call him Headmaster as he defeated Grindelwald when she was around 17-19. It is reflected that she seems him commander of more than just Hogwarts (giggle).

I always think of this and remind myself that the books are from Harry's POV and he only sees Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall interacting in situations where they have both been called into his presence, which are usually emergencies - so it is likely that she would call him 'Dumbledore' addressing him as the person who has to decide what to do. When they are alone, anxious or more relaxed they use their first names.

It always amused me, even before I shipped ADMM, that in OotP when Harry was in Albus' office for one reason or another and Min was in her tartan dressing gown, he gave her an order in front of only Harry and addressed her as 'Minerva'. Albus has always tried to give Harry hints, hasn't he?

[/ramble]

[beMMADfabulous]

^^ Good job on that. I especially enjoyed this part:

nemi said:

It always amused me, even before I shipped ADMM, that in OotP when Harry was in Albus' office for one reason or another and Min was in her tartan dressing gown, he gave her an order in front of only Harry and addressed her as 'Minerva'. Albus has always tried to give Harry hints, hasn't he?

;D I've always thought about that too. That's a very considerable reason why that book is my favorite. hehe

[DaBao]

Alright! This just constantly boosts my morale (although I don't think "morale" is exactly the right word I'm looking for it's close enough). It's just more proof and maybe some stuff I can shove to my anti-MMAD cousin.
Once more the word I'm using doesn't exactly fit, my cousin isn't really "anti-MMAD" more like she believes they're not a couple.

[StormAngel]

o.0... More material to convince my cousin that ADMM exists!!~~

[ιady ταвz]

ok, this is such a good explanation..so precise and i agree with every word..i will cling to it as verifiable proof

[StormAngel]

Totally agreed. I believe every single word, no matter what my parents, relatives say.. ~~

[DaBao]

Same here, I refuse to believe that MM/AD doesn't exist! MMADness rules!!

[StormAngel]

yupz.... MMAD exists. BOOH to those people who think otherwise

[childminerva]

It is a true ship, even if it is just behind the scenes!

[ιady ταвz]

YES....hope is always there that its true cos it is

[StormAngel]

yupz.. If you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there...

[DaBao]

Why do you think some people believe SS/MM is more probable that AD/MM? I never understood what was so special about Snape and McGonagall.